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  #61  
Old 10-05-2012
Ghul Ghul is offline
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Looking at my local swim club, Charles's figures seem a bit optimistic. In
the club galas (25m pool) over the last couple of years, there seem to be
1-2 boys in each age group from 15 to 18 going sub 60. The number of competitors thins out notably at 15, so perhaps swimmers who realize they will never come close to 1 min drop out of competitive swimming at 14! It's not a particularly large town and I can't speak to the coaching but I've no reason to think it is atypical.
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  #62  
Old 10-05-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Charles,

I'll accept the wisdom of your experience on this.

So I have 4.5 years left to get under 60? otherwise forget it.
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  #63  
Old 10-05-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghul View Post
Looking at my local swim club, Charles's figures seem a bit optimistic. In
the club galas (25m pool) over the last couple of years, there seem to be
1-2 boys in each age group from 15 to 18 going sub 60. The number of competitors thins out notably at 15, so perhaps swimmers who realize they will never come close to 1 min drop out of competitive swimming at 14! It's not a particularly large town and I can't speak to the coaching but I've no reason to think it is atypical.
Well this is based on my own experience, but it's true that I was grown as a coach in a great little club. Varsity level but that also develops youth. Study-Sport programs (ie, kids spend some time in the school AM, but do train every PM) for both elementary, secondary, and pre-university (ie, college) levels.

And really there, at 15-16-17, they're mostly seeking for eastern national standards (55s and faster). That team probably count at least 80 kids of various ages in its program. Like you mention, if they persist til youth age (15-17), they're all under 1min with out a single exception. They are not going to reach national level though, only a subset will.
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  #64  
Old 10-05-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Charles,

I'll accept the wisdom of your experience on this.

So I have 4.5 years left to get under 60? otherwise forget it.
You're probably writing this tongue in a cheek, but it's my mission (with my personal business) to try to turn ordinary joes into swimmers, at least those who want it real bad. And sometimes it works!

First met with a 27yo guy dreaming of getting under 1:30 for a flat out 100m in 2010. He did commit to something quite serious with me last year (nov 2011) and as a result of this process, his PB over 100m which was 1:07 went down to 1:02. He wants to go sub 60 this year, and I think he will!

So for him, he will have reached Sub60 starting from scratch at age 27 within 3 years probably.

Ultra fast swimming is a matter of choice. I like to believe it remains accessible to a lot of adults, given that they make this choice. You usually don't get that fast by thinking hard, but rather by swimming hard, which is something not that many adults commit to.

So in the end for me, it remains a matter of choice, more than of opportunity.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-05-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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  #65  
Old 10-05-2012
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CoachJohnB CoachJohnB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Charles,

.

So I have 4.5 years left to get under 60? otherwise forget it.
Don't know your current age, but there are people worldwide that can swim under 1:00 for both long course and short course that are over 50.
If you want to swim under a minute, you have to devote a few practices a week at that goal.
Broken swims of 25's and 50's are a good starting point to help your body learn to swim at a faster clip for a short distance. As your progress, you swim at a faster clip for a longer distance.
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  #66  
Old 10-05-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Ian Smith, a 70yo master who lives 10m away from where I live, still does 1:05 over 100m LCM, and well under 30sec for 50m free. 70yo dammit.
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  #67  
Old 10-05-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Well I felt I moved a little closer to the target tonight.

I am developing my nervous system to like 60 strokes a minute rather than 50.

I'd had my beetroot today which apparently helps you train harder (another thread coming soon I guess) and so used the second half of my set to work on my sprint speed.

20x25 with TT@0.99 off interval of 40s. Managed to mostly hold 19.45 seconds per lengths and my body accustomed to the interval faster than I thought it would.

Then did a 4321 set on the TT0.99 to see how my technique and form could hold. The 25's and 50's weren't a problem but by the time I got to the 75's I was holding my SPL at 17/18 but was losing rhythm and dropping some half strokes here and there up to about 6 (3 seconds) on the 100m

Still a 1.25 or so for a pool start and open turn interval repeat 100m is about as fast as I have swum on that TT setting so its all good.

Also had my bike position professionally analysed today, very enlightening, oh the value of small pieces of good advice. And it October so 6 month's of Sunday swim sessions to look forward to. Oh how my optimism abounds.
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  #68  
Old 10-06-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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The problem with looking at swimming frame by frame is that it is meaningless. Sun looks slow with little propulsion and lots of drag in still frames but we know that is not the case. He is fast, world record fast. He is the perfect example of a "tactile" swimmer in that he seems to swim Primarily by feel ( charles millions of tiny sensors).
It's like Harry Wiltshire (I think that's his name) swimming triathlons. He can look like he is drowning at 100 spm even in video but he is very fast. There are as many ways to swim fast as there are to swim slow and the only thing that counts is the end result.

The variety of styles and stroke rates in the 1500 is what makes it so fun to watch and so hard to "scientifically" armchair analyze.
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  #69  
Old 10-06-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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I meant to add that when people are critical of "glide" I like to remind them of the rule "primum non nocere" ("first, do no harm")
When you are moving forward nicely why rush and upset what you have worked so carefully at creating?
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  #70  
Old 10-06-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffinhawaii View Post
I meant to add that when people are critical of "glide" I like to remind them of the rule "primum non nocere" ("first, do no harm")
When you are moving forward nicely why rush and upset what you have worked so carefully at creating?

I would like to have my own device that measures both speed and force combined with video to assess these types of issues.

I think that there is a lot that can be said for simply LOOKING at the video or swimmer as a trained coach. Over and over again in medicine, the intuition of an experienced practitioner is frequently as good as or better than, many tests and tools of the trade. Two examples are dermatologists identifying skin lesions and ER physicians identifying an abdomen that needs surgery that night (that would go for surgeons as well). The mroe experienced the pratitioner, the more accurately 'hunches' align with testing.

The differences between swim coaches and physicians is that physicians have confirmatory tests that are read independantly by other practitioners.

In the swim coahc world there are a hand ful of coaches who have devices that measure speed and/or force...and the owners of those devices are interpreting them

At any point in the water the swimmer is creating hydrodynammic drag whether or not they are creating propulsion. And at the moment they are creating propulsion they are simultaneously increasing their drag.

an experienced coach watching video can identify these high adn low drag moments. Along with the high and low propulsive moments. The anaylsis of Sun posted above completely neglects the low drag moments (I think) and fails to mention, except for cursory comments about the angles of his ankle, that propulsive moments increase drag.
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