Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-27-2009
madvet madvet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 230
madvet
Default

One basic truth is Newton's mm-hmm law (ok, I am not even sure it is Newton) : Force = mass times acceleration.

You are basically accelerating against the drag caused by the water. If your mass is 20% greater than it could be then you will go 20% slower.

What affects the drag that you can't change by effective streamlining? The "hole" your body cuts in the water, perpendicular to your line of motion. If you have a broad torso that will slow you down. You could look up the physics, but I think the co-efficient of drag would probably increase by 10% in your situation.

So, you might be going 30% slower due to your body type. If your technique was "perfect" and you were trying to compete on an elite level that would definitely be a factor. But those people going 30 seconds per 50m are going 50% faster than your 60 seconds.

So, your technique can not possibly be "perfectl" (that was the poop detector comment, I believe). TI stresses decreasing drag, and a good portion of that effort can be focused on decreasing your body's hole in the water as much as you possibly can. Is your alignment perfect yet?

I know, it is not fair that you have the body you were born with. But most Masters' swimmers have motivations beyond being able to win medals at meets.

TI swimmers get enjoyment from developing graceful efficient movement through water.

I think it is great that you are putting this much effort into the process. I don't think we are annoyed at you bringing up interesting subjects. It did seem like you were not really taking things to heart.

We would love to see a video.
__________________
John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-27-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Do you realise that the resistance to forward movement increases at a higher rate than your speed increases? In other words, small improvements in time take much more energy and much better technique? So the difference between 20, 25, and 30 seconds per 50m is not a linear increase in ability. (I don't know the maths term for it though. I don't know if it's quite exponential.)

Without even continuing to read your other replies, it's clear that you have an ego, but not one justified in the pool. "Performance is reality." hehe If you want someone to agree with you that you are limited and always will be...right, you are. Now what?

EDIT: Well, on a positive note, maybe you could outswim your peers in distance events (greater than 200 or 400m) instead of sprints.

Last edited by shuumai : 01-27-2009 at 04:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-27-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjm View Post
Pity all the fat slob swimmers, like Eamon Sullivan and Stephanie Rice, who break world records and even have the gall to pose in their underwear:

http://www.charmants.com/2008/07/08/...tephanie-rice/
Eh?! Where do you see fat except in the right places?! I'm noticing two other attributes. Eamon's forearms are not big at all and Stephanie's hair must be a challenge to fit in a swim cap.

Let's compare Popeye and Aquaman. Aquaman must be a better swimmer, yet Popeye has huge forearms. I'd say Popeye has a higher percentage of body fat, pre-spinach. I don't recall seeing Popeye swim post-spinach, but I imagine he could be fast. (Could it be considered doping?)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-27-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Hey, could it be that smaller, lighter bodies have less rotational energy?

BTW, I was just reading "Gold in the Water." It mentioned that scientists still (as of 2001) don't understand how a dolphin uses 1/8 of the energy that calculations predict. There are many mysteries to swimming that haven't been solved. I doubt that we will solve them within this thread. heh

Last edited by shuumai : 01-27-2009 at 05:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-27-2009
pvl000 pvl000 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1
pvl000
Default

Scientist have determined that dolphins do not possess any magic power. The orginial study didn't have sufficient technology to do the observations properl...

http://www.scientificblogging.com/ne..._and_heres_why
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-27-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvl000 View Post
Scientist have determined that dolphins do not possess any magic power. The orginial study didn't have sufficient technology to do the observations properl...

http://www.scientificblogging.com/ne..._and_heres_why

Wow, I'm glad I qualified what I wrote with, "as of 2001." Can you find the research done on swimmers as the article mentions?

It would be interesting if both top-speed Olympic swimmers were evaluated along with distance swimmers on cruise control.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-27-2009
AWP AWP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 575
AWP
Default my 2 bits

Fred,
Body type will matter in some regard, probably in any sport, but I have a hard time accepting your notion in general. Perhaps at the elite level in determining why so and so cannot seem to beat so and so even under the same guidance, training and with the same technique and skill level, maybe. No one seems more dense and skinny armed than Eamon ( as I see is mentioned) relative to size. But Fred are we just talking about locomotion in general?

Given your change, and your son's, in body development it would seem even more important to utilize the dynamics of weight shifts while swimming. In order for this to be a successful application, working with your 'whole' body in a perhaps different way, certainly with a different mindset, would be essential.

You can in fact learn to move yourself with grace and efficiency and yes speed too no matter how 'dense' you think you are (laughter please) and maybe just maybe next time you're swimming, place your focus, your ((intent)) on moving forward by sending your energy, power or what have you, forward. That is, a focus on a well timed kick to "spearing" the opposite hand in. If your catch arm is in a good position (ie. Thorpe like, Hackett like) a light pressure focus is all you'll need. Your full attention on "spearing" forward from one "track" to another.

I'm not a scientist, researcher, coach or specialist so couldn't answer your direct question with any 'clinical' knowledge or proof, only my own swimming experience and progress.

As we all know some things aren't what they appear to be, so even though you may appear to be swimming OK, maybe just maybe there is some movement you can improve on or solve.

Much luck on your quest and do give those drills a go, especially those relating to balance and weight shifting.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-28-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP View Post
Given your change, and your son's, in body development it would seem even more important to utilize the dynamics of weight shifts while swimming. In order for this to be a successful application, working with your 'whole' body in a perhaps different way, certainly with a different mindset, would be essential.
That makes me wonder. If one learns to swim in a certain type of body, then they switch bodies with someone else, or their body drastically changes, wouldn't that person need to seriously tweak their technique?

Say you're a girl who is rail thin. You learn to swim and everything is fine. You take a year (or so) off during which you "blossom" into a voluptuous woman. Weight distribution and buoyancy would be affected as well as the -- cough -- shape of the vessel. I think some re-learning would have to happen, but would performance be impossible?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-18-2009
freshegg freshegg is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Posts: 22
freshegg
Default

I just read all these forum postings regarding body type and whether it has any bearing on how slowly you swim. Probably no one will see this posting since the forum is so old by now, but I thought I'd add my piece.

I'm posting this message not because I have the answer to the issue, but because I totally totally totally know where Fred is coming from. When I read his first posting, I thought, "Me Too !! Me Too !!" I am also very lean, muscular on top, with (dare I say it?) washboard abs - built more like a gymnast - but with spindly legs. And I swear that having this body type makes me slower in the pool. I am totally convinced of it. I experience the same frustration Fred mentioned, seeing fatties whiz by me, when I believe I'm swimming with the proper technique. (Okay, I'm not THAT slow, but I feel like I should be faster than I am.) When I do the superman glide, I jackknife and sink. Even just merely pushing off from the wall, the person in the lane next to me will go further. And I am streamlined !! Really, I am !!! Arrrggggh.

So, even though I can't offer any solutions, I wanted Fred to know, you're not alone.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-18-2009
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freshegg View Post
When I do the superman glide, I jackknife and sink.

So, even though I can't offer any solutions, I wanted Fred to know, you're not alone.
I don't think Fred wanted a solution. That's what made it frustrating, since most people here are improvement-minded. I think he just wanted some science to give him a reason for not swimming as well as some other people.

There are people, especially in the Paralympics, who swim twice as fast as I can and maybe without the use of their legs. Or maybe without arms or something. At least I'm able to not sink to the bottom now. hehe

I used to think other people had better buoyancy than me, but now I see that, yeah, some do float better than I do, but I can in fact float. Now, like you guys, I just need a little (a lot) more speed. For now, I feel great when I can do my current pace, but with less effort or a better feel.

"Jackknife"?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.