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  #1  
Old 11-30-2008
Suddethb Suddethb is offline
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Default One or two Dolphins Per Arm Stroke?

I purchased the butterfly DVD and have started practice. I have a coach helping to point out improvements and it has gotten me to a 43 second 50 yd in 5 1/2 strokes per length in only 5 weeks of practice, having never learned this stroke before. WOW!

I'm concerned about one thing. I think what I'm practicing isn't legal in Masters swimming. The masters rules seem to show that whether you are doing a breaststroke (whip) kick or use a dolphin instead, you are only allowed one kick per arm stroke, and the "Butterfly for Boomers" has me doing one extra kick between arm strokes. I LOVE the stroke and am having a great time learning it, but I'm worried that if I practice with the extra kick I'll be disqualified from a meet for illegal stroke. I'm 48 now and looking at the possibility of entering Senior Olympics when I turn 50. I want to ensure the practice is the same as how I'll compete. Below is the masters rule. Did I read it right and I have to drop the second dolphin in order to be legal? If so, suggestions for how to keep up my speed, smoothness and relaxation during the stroke even if I have to do the arm pull on every kick?


101.3.3 Kick—All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous.
The position of the legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but
they shall not alternate in relation to each other. The breaststroke or whip
kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick while
doing the butterfly stroke at any time during the race. Only one breaststroke
or whip kick is permitted per arm pull, except that a single breaststroke
or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and the finish without an arm
pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick
is permitted prior to the first arm pull. A scissors kicking movement is not
permitted.
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Old 11-30-2008
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
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I'm a little puzzled by this because I'm pretty sure that two kicks are allowed. As in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNk_P...eature=related
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2008
Jamwhite Jamwhite is offline
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As I read it, you can only do one breaststroke kick. It does not stipulate anything about dolphin.

For dolphin, there is always two kicks. There is a undulation caused by both the initial pull and again when you arms recover.

In the mini-fly drill, you practice this by doing a second kick after the arm pull.
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Old 12-01-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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I'm really curious to see what you are doing at the moment. Could you post a video?

The standard buttery has two dolphin kicks. If you do butterfrog, the rules say that you can only do one frog kick per arm cycle, but is that the only kick you can do?

I think the purpose of, what I will call, the first dolphin kick is to cancel the upward movement of the upper body and the downward movement of the lower body. It might add propulsion as well. The second dolphin kick raises the hips and seems to add noticeable propulsion. I can imagine not using the first kick, but the second one is pretty important to me.

If you do butterfrog, it seems to make sense that you could leave out the first kick, or do a dolphin kick, then use the frog kick for a powerful second kick.

Maybe the first dolphin kick can be considered a "bracing" action?
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Old 12-01-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhoda View Post
I'm a little puzzled by this because I'm pretty sure that two kicks are allowed. As in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNk_P...eature=related
Wow, Phelps is always good to watch, but the second swimmer is really interesting. I just noticed this. On the pulls when he keeps his head down, he kicks twice. On the pulls that he breathes on, he doesn't do the first dolphin kick, which reminds me of the "boomers" style. He also keeps his hands wide apart.

Phelps kicks twice and breathes (with few exceptions) during each cycle. Also, he brings his hands close together under his body. And we know what Phelps can do timewise.
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2008
daveblt daveblt is offline
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It seems to me that the other swimmer's hip's drop a bit and he does not carry through with his undulations like Phelp's does on the breathing stroke .Phelp's hips never drop


Dave
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2008
CoachGaryS CoachGaryS is offline
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Here are the FINA rules:

SW 8 BUTTERFLY

SW 8.1 From the beginning of the first arm stroke after the start and each turn, the body shall be kept on the breast. Under water kicking on the side is allowed. It is not permitted to roll onto the back at any time.
SW 8.2 Both arms shall be brought forward together over the water and brought backward simultaneously through-out the race, subject to SW 8.5.
SW 8.3 All up and down movements of the legs must be simultaneous. The legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to each other. A breaststroke kicking movement is not permitted.
SW 8.4 At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously, at, above or below the water surface.
SW 8.5 At the start and at turns, a swimmer is permitted one or more leg kicks and one arm pull under the water, which must bring him to the surface. It shall be permissible for a swimmer to be completely submerged for a distance of not more than 15 metres after the start and after each turn. By that point, the head must have broken the surface. The swimmer must remain on the surface until the next turn or finish.

and...

MSW 3.10 A breaststroke kicking movement is permitted for butterfly

So as a referee, the only thing one watches for is that all up and down motion of the legs are simultaneous (SW 8.3) or that a breaststroke kick is used in Masters (MSW 3.10).

So a 2 dolphin kick fly is quite permissible.
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Old 12-01-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachGaryS View Post
So a 2 dolphin kick fly is quite permissible.
But what about one breast kick and one fly kick?
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2008
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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As I understand the FINA rules you can kick as many times as you like and for masters you can kick twice if you are swimming butterfrog. The USMS rules expressly forbid a two-kick butterfrog for reasons that are unclear to me.

There are drills in which you can kick as many as four or five times per arm stroke, and I have always been under the impression that this would be legal, although nobody does it because it is less efficient.

Probably butterfrog is more efficient with a single kick. I don't think there's anything in the FINA rules that would penalise a dolphin kick to extend the glide after the frog kick.

Ideally I suppose we would all swim proper fly with dolphin kicks.

I'm working on it and on single kick butterfrog as well.
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2008
Suddethb Suddethb is offline
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Default Over Thinking - Not enough study!

Yay! Watching Phelps on the videos does indeed show his feet moving down twice for each arm motion. When I saw "only one kick per pull" in the rules I was concerned. Hey if it's legal for Mike it's good enough for me! I hadn't thought about doing a vid of how I swim the fly, but now that you mention it, I think it's a great idea! I can always use additional constructive comments from others who are working on the same style. I have a class on Thursday, and I'll ask the instructor to shoot me (so to speak). That way I can see my own work as well! Great idea.

Thank you all for the comments! I feel much better.

On the other hand, for the Senior Olympics, I'll need to get my 50 yard fly down to 30.9 just in order to QUALIFY to race in the 50-54 division. YIPE! I think I'll focus on the 100, since the qualifying time for that is 1:33.10, and I'm sure I can outlast these guys using the techniques here! The sprinters are nuts! Funny how the Sr. Olympics doesn't include a 1500 Fly!
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