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  #1  
Old 01-04-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
Default Muscular Symmetry for EVF

When I do the skatch drill(A similar Video) I have the same feeling of "Lifting the elbow, lifting the shoulders out of the water" as said in the video.I see that I am doing this drill easily with my right arm but when I try the with my left arm, I feel it is not as smooth .The same happens with the whole stroke and I feel I am not able to anchor my hand easily with my left arm. I feel its due to the muscular imbalances in the shoulder. Are there other reasons for this? Has anyone experienced this?
What are the muscles to strengthen to offset this? Any Solutions?

Last edited by arunks : 01-04-2012 at 05:21 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arunks View Post
When I do the skatch drill(A similar Video) I have the same feeling of "Lifting the elbow, lifting the shoulders out of the water" as said in the video.I see that I am doing this drill easily with my right arm but when I try the with my left arm, I feel it is not as smooth .The same happens with the whole stroke and I feel I am not able to anchor my hand easily with my left arm. I feel its due to the muscular imbalances in the shoulder. Are there other reasons for this? Has anyone experienced this?
What are the muscles to strengthen to offset this? Any Solutions?
Dave Cameron gives an excellent video on the early catch:

http://youtu.be/tDmQiHQ8mW8

As for imbalance - I have the same problem and I've been working on it all of last year and still working on it. You should know that the problem is most likely both muscular and neuromuscular.

Muscular = your muscles may be too weak to perform the movement

Neuromuscular = your nervous system has not learned how to fire the right muscles to perform the movement, even if they are strong enough.

First - strength:

In another post in Links and Refs in this forum, I asked the community about strength training for swimming. I have been reading a lot and trying things. the basic concepts would be:

1. always focus on the end goal. is it pure strength or is it swimming? you will find that you cannot do both; you may set yourself for more injury since your muscles can only take so much.

2. if it is swimming, then you must adjust the quality and quantity accordingly. too many people still think that strength building and body building are the same thing. they are not! i have learned that it is possible to build strength without wiping out your body so that you can gain strength benefits while focusing on swim training and making that better. going swimming with tight, wiped out shoulders from weight lifting is bad - not only does it make swimming movements harder, it sets you up for more potential injury.

so you must mentally prepare yourself for working out with weights, but NOT TO FAILURE. we are not making you Arnold; we are making you a better swimmer!

3. so far i have found deadlifting, bench pressing, kettlebells and indian clubs to be great at strengthening the shoulders. each of these requires more skill than you think or else you could hurt yourself attempting them. i would find a good personal trainer to teach you to execute the movements properly. if not that, then i think dragondoor.com has some of the best DVDs and books on the topic. check out stuff by Pavel and Gray Cook. Easy Strength is a great read on overall concepts and then it dives into some programs, although none specifically targeted towards swimmers (which is why i posted in these forums asking about swim targeted strength programs).

btw, if you mail order kettlebells, i would make sure wherever you order from has free shipping on it. shipping hunks of iron is expensive!

4. Terry has mentioned he likes yoga. i too have tried yoga and like it but i've run out of time in the day to keep adding stuff to my schedule! I would try it and see how you feel about it. always do things you like! there are many yoga moves and poses that are great for strengthening.

Second - neuromuscular:

I am on the verge of fixing my imbalance. keep practicing the TI drills on both sides. Over time they will equal out.

Dave Cameron's dryland drill is excellent. sometimes i'll just get up out of my chair and just do a couple of those. it burns into the nervous system what exactly needs to happen when you get into the pool.

some other focal points to try:

1. while spearing, wait until the last possible moment before catching and then stroking back

2. spear higher than normal, but not higher than horizontal! this is harder than it looks and may require video or partner analysis to tell you if you're not spearing higher. EVF is easier when your arm is more horizontal.

3. extend the catching arm's upper arm forward as you spear the other arm, letting the hand/forearm drop underneath.

4. open up the axilla of the catching arm by extending the catching arm, as you spear the other arm.

there are definitely others to try - post some video of yourself and we can give comments!
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Thank you Dshen for the suggestions. I used to practice Weight training but have not practiced for sometime. I have been doing Yoga for quite some time and I feel It has helped me improve on Strength and flexibilty and I feel it is complimenting my swimming very well. Probably I need to focus more on the shoulders to improve on the strength.
I had posted a video recently and the problem was with the right arm recovery not being right because of the same problem.(i.e problem with the left hand catch)
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  #4  
Old 01-04-2012
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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I had the exact same problem particularly in the catch phase where my right arm moved as I wanted but the left arm didn't. I tried first to make my left arm do what my right was doing but this resulted in a sore shoulder and too much tension in the stroke. I reverted to just concentrating on the switch, spearing, roll etc and not the catch or pull. A few weeks later I've noticed my left arm is now moving like the right and the stroke is becoming more symmetrical. The shoulder soreness has gone.
Mike
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2012
Scotty Scotty is offline
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Default Great SwimTherapy video

Arunks:

Thanks for the link to SwimTherapy's video of the high elbow catch. Although Coach Dave's explanation is detailed and well-articulated, I have a tough time visualizing the technique when the subject is vertical and on land.

SwimTherapy's focal point of bringing the elbow over the hand to start the catch really resonates with me. I can't wait to try this in the pool tomorrow.

Scotty
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  #6  
Old 01-04-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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This is a good test

Put your left hand over your shoulder and down your back palm facing towards the back, now try to bring your right hand up from the base of your spin with palm facing outwards so that your hands meet and fingers lock.

Now try the other way, right hand over shoulder, left hand up.

The first way I can lock all four fingers

The second way I am three or four inches off.

Amazing difference.

Can someone explain the muscles involved. I am left handed.
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  #7  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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arunks
Default Gomukasana

Andy, the exercise that you talk is called Gomukhasana in Yoga.I practice this everyday and am able to do it on both the sides. You can know the muscles used in the attached pic.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pic1.jpg (76.4 KB, 16 views)
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  #8  
Old 01-05-2012
arunks arunks is offline
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Joint actions for the same exercise
Mostly neutral spine, with slight extension in the thoracic spine because of the
arm position. Top arm: scapula upward rotation, elevation, adduction; glenohumeral
joint external rotation and flexion; elbow flexion; forearm pronation.
Bottom arm: scapula downward rotation, adduction, depression;
glenohumeral joint internal rotation, extension; elbow flexion; forearm
supination.
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  #9  
Old 01-05-2012
cynthiam cynthiam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
This is a good test

Put your left hand over your shoulder and down your back palm facing towards the back, now try to bring your right hand up from the base of your spin with palm facing outwards so that your hands meet and fingers lock.

Now try the other way, right hand over shoulder, left hand up.

The first way I can lock all four fingers

The second way I am three or four inches off.

Amazing difference.

Can someone explain the muscles involved. I am left handed.
Andy, I'm the same way as you. My physical therapist told me that it's common to have less mobility in the shoulder of the dominant arm.
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  #10  
Old 01-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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That video drives me nuts. Listen to the video at 3:24 for the next few seconds....

"Remember if you get the catch correct, it puts a lot of pressure...a lot of strain on that shoulder". I call BS on that. A good catch should not cause strain on the shoulder...but this is the way "conventional swimming" teaches it.

Here is a video of a 64 year old woman...the woman I blogged about...doing a catch that places no strain on the shoulder using the technique that coach dave demonstrates in his dry land video.

This is that drill taken horizontally in the water.

http://steelcityendurance.smugmug.co...984695_kj2qxcT

I'm sure that every one of you is stronger than this lady..strength is not a factor. It's slightly possible that she may be more flexible in some ways...but she is 64 years old with previous shoulder injuries from a car accident. All the strength & mobility discussion here so far is a red herring for learning this movement.

Sure at some point strength and flexibility will help you...but not for learning this technique. A open mind, an empty pool lane, and lots of patience will get you there.
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Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 01-05-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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