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  #1  
Old 10-15-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Default High elbow catch

My question is academic for personal purposes, since my catch isn't done with elbow at water surface and I have no interest in developing such a catch.

But here it is, since I am interested in the answer:

What basis is there for the apparently generally accepted view that the most powerful catch is obtained with a very high elbow?
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
What basis is there for the apparently generally accepted view that the most powerful catch is obtained with a very high elbow?
With the exception of drills, my impression is that the elbow should be high enough to facilitate a pull that engages the forearm, not just the wrist, but that it need not be "very" high.
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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So why do all the elite swimmers do it?
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Old 10-16-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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It's not the high elbow that is efficient in itself.
It's the *Early Vertical* forearm.
The former is a necessity for the latter (or maybe the opposite, I've always mixed *former* and *latter*)

The earlier your forearm is vertical, the longest the catch phase will be.
The longest catch possible is when you have 1) a 90° angle between your upper arm and you forearm, *and* 2) a upper arm which is a: horizontal *and* in the direction you're travelling.

I'm not sure that's move is achievable, but the result is the longest path where your forearm is vertical.
Every more inch between your upper arm and the surface is a bit of that travel path you're loosing.

That's someting to be considered only at the elite level I think
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Old 10-16-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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I don't follow. Why don't I get a catch which is just as effective if, like most, my catch forms half a diamond beneath my body (so that if one stroked with both arms at once, the arms would form a square hole beneath the torso)?
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Old 10-16-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I seem to remember that, according to Gary Hall Sr of the Race Club, the advantage of the early vertical forearm is that it reduces drag, but the TI experts don't seem to think much of G. Hall Sr.

According to 'Doc' Counsilman the 'over the barrel' pull is the best, with the straight arm pull next best and the dropped elbow pull worst.

The disadvantage of the straight arm pull, according to Counsilman, is that for the first part of the action the arm is pushing water down rather than back and at the end of the pull it is pushing water up.

Terry's view, I think, is that one should concentrate on the movement of the body and that the pull will happen naturally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There's a lot about the EVF on youtube, not all of it very convincing, in my opinion.
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Old 10-16-2011
Whisk Whisk is offline
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I'm sorry that my first post is as if I know what I'm talking about...As a rule, I don't.

However, I have spent many many hours trying to get an understanding in and out of TI, so my understanding:
If you have a standard windmill style swinging straight arm and "vault" over the catch hand, in effect, the whole of the arm is moving forward through the body of water creating everybodies favourite enemy, drag. As opposed to a high vertical forearm that in effect stays with the hand and does not get vaulted past the hand and therefore creates less drag.

I also believe that Terry believes we shouldn't concern about hvf as its pretty damn hard to achieve.

Myself, I have to use something of an open armpit and high elbow catch to avoid shoulder stress encountered with the windmill style - even if straight arm with palm catch was better, the stresses at the shoulder would certainly cripple me for sure.
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2011
naj naj is offline
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Default Just my opinion

I have tried to incorporate a bit of EVF into my catch but found that a more straight arm, though not completely straight, has worked best for me. I do agree though that the EVF by the likes of a Grant Hackett or Ian Thorpe is not something a mere mortal might be able to do.
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Old 10-17-2011
KatieK KatieK is offline
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When the forearm is vertical, it's parallel to the wall behind you. That directs the force of your stroke backward and propels you forward. When the forearm is less vertical, part of the force is directed downward instead of backward. That's a waste of momentum.

As DD_l_enclume mentioned, the high elbow isn't really the point. To get a vertical forearm, you have to keep your elbow in front of your shoulder. But simply raising your elbow won't make your forearm vertical.

When you get it right, you feel your body shoot forward without applying any additional force.

I've read that the advantage of EVF is more pronounced at higher stroke rates.
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  #10  
Old 10-17-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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No one has answered my question. It wasn't: why not swipe with a straight arm? It was: why not swipe with a non-vertical forearm (i.e. like most people do - even Kerry Ann Payne)?

See my description above of the diamond shape the arm makes under the body during the pull, when a mere mortal swims. The elbow is still above the wrist, and the forearm is still being used as a paddle.

I suspect the answer is that a classical EVF action allows grabbing a larger ball of water. That assumes the EVF is physically possible, and many seem to agree it isn't for them (it isn't for me). I'm with Terry on this: life's too short to chase rainbows, whatever the theoretical advantages.
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