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  #41  
Old 10-21-2011
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Two considerations:

Sometimes Yan and Hackett for example seem (for my untrained eyes) form a hollow back (a little bit bananalike) just before starting their spearing.

- Might it be the EVF and the HEC are their start into a slight delphin like movement? Not so much as on start but a little. Hand-elbow-shoulder-body-legs, shoulder-body-legs lead it to end with simultaniously body rotation while the catching arm generates the propulsion. (For this complicated movement EVF and HEC (and theoretically a shortly high head) might be necessary.)

- Might it be they create with their extreme pace and style an other type of bow wave? (Like pinguin relatetd to fish or the large ships with the nose in their bow... which works best at a special rate and draft...)

Regards
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  #42  
Old 10-21-2011
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
First, the 13% "improvement" refers to Grant Hackett, not the others in the race. Second, that number derives, I think, from comparing the average SPL of Hackett and Sun.

I would question the use of SPL - by itself - as a measure of "efficiency." By that measure I would be 100% efficient by kicking the whole length and taking zero strokes. By that measure, as well, swimmers such as David Davies and Janet Evans would be considered relatively "inefficient" swimmers. Which is absurd.
OK, you got me there. Just delete the erronous "13%" from my last post, viz.:

But Sun was able to work harder in the last 100m because he'd been swimming more efficiently than the others in the previous 1400m.
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  #43  
Old 10-21-2011
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Again - "efficient" by what measure? SPL? See my above comment about using SPL alone as a measure of efficiency.

Or was he more efficient in terms of energy expenditure? Possibly, but you can't know that unless you had him hooked up to biometric monitors. And lower SPL is not equivalent to lower energy expenditure.

What you CAN say is that Sun was swimming faster than the others in the first 1400m. Perhaps that's because he was in better shape.
I'm happy you agree Sun was possibly more efficient than the others (or, indeed the previous WR holder) in the first 1400m! I also agree with you that possibly he was in better shape, but, again, you can't know that without biometric monitors.

My comment simply reflects that idea that conserving energy expenditure in the first part of a physical challenge can pay dividends at the end.

Surely one of the principles of TI is conserving energy. That's why many triathletes look to TI to learn how to conserve energy during the swim phase, so they have enough left over for the bike + run.
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
But Sun was able to work harder in the last 100m because he'd been swimming more efficiently than the others in the previous 1400m.
He was certainly swimming faster than the others, but you can't know whether he was swimming more efficiently than the others unless you counted everyone else's strokes. Did you do that?

What we do know is that Sun swam more efficiently than Hackett - he swam approx. the same speed but with fewer strokes. That is, IF you define efficiency as the combination of stroke count and stroke length.
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  #45  
Old 10-21-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
My comment simply reflects that idea that conserving energy expenditure in the first part of a physical challenge can pay dividends at the end.
Surely one of the principles of TI is conserving energy. That's why many triathletes look to TI to learn how to conserve energy during the swim phase, so they have enough left over for the bike + run.
Fair enough, but Sun Yang's objective is to swim 1500m as fast as possible, not to conserve energy for the bike and run. Here are Sun's 100m splits:

56.3, 58.8, 58.8, 58.9, 58.7, 58.7, 58.7, 58.6, 58.7, 58.9, 58.7, 58.5, 58.9, 58.8, 54.2.

I'd be curious to know what Sun's coach thought of those splits. Obviously, he had a lot left in the tank on the last 100m. Is it possible Sun could have gone even faster for the full 1500 if he had held a slightly more aggressive pace for the first 1400? 58-lows instead of 58-highs? Over 1400m, even a 0.5 second faster pace translates into 7 seconds - more than the 4 seconds he gained on the last 100m.
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  #46  
Old 10-21-2011
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Fair enough, but Sun Yang's objective is to swim 1500m as fast as possible, not to conserve energy for the bike and run. Here are Sun's 100m splits:
<snipped>
The objective of a triathlete is not to win too?

RE: Sun's split times, I'm sorry, I'm just not into that level of detail :) I honestly don't have anything to add beyond my original one-line comment, and I should have left it at that - sorry for hijacking this thread!
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  #47  
Old 10-22-2011
TomH TomH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Nobody mentioned this, but high elbow seems to engage more muscles in your upper back and sides during the pull. I can even feel it in a dry land exercise.
I've definitely noticed a more solid pull, with a feeling of better propulsion when I concentrate on keeping my elbows high and closer to the surface. I think doing this also adds additional propulsion from the upper arm during the last part of the pull as the upper arm and elbow are "squeezing" back towards the body.
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  #48  
Old 10-22-2011
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal F View Post
My vertical palm displaces 25 sq in of water and my vertical forearm displaces maybe 8 sq in of water, so maintaining a vertical forearm possibly adds another third of propulsion to each stroke. My feeling from training with fistgloves supports that notion.
I believe that that the square area of your forearm measured from the elbow joint to the wrist will be very close if not the same as the sqaure area of your hand - it is on me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDave View Post
I've seen a lot of swimmers (and coaches) who dismiss HEC as unattainable for mere mortals. It can be done by anybody. Really. It's a question of timing- if you're trying to move into that position without the assistance of the hips or striking arm, you're missing a big piece. The HEC is possible for most people when they initiate rotation using something besides pulling early, and many TI devotees still haven't truly weaned themselves off of pulling themselves onto the next side (even though they have done it correctly in drills).

To respond to Lawrence, the question is not just how good the grip is, but also how long someone uses that grip for propulsion and what muscles are accessed. My high elbow catch starts its perpendicular access near the front of my head, and increases in effectiveness as the arm comes down and through. By going with the diamond position, you've eliminated the least effective part of the HEC, but it still is quite an effective part.
A true high elbow catch is based much more in the lats and connected core muscles, and many people are unable to find this catch because they try to twist the shoulder to attain it. The videos I just shot with Shinji should help some people in getting more understanding on how rotation should trigger it.
I agree totally with CoachDave. While elite swimmers make HEC/EVL look easy it can be learned by any level swimmer. However, I believe there is a component missing from the discussion and that is of the opposite arm and its action during the recovering arm’s spearing, hip and shoulder drive.
I first began teaching ELV to my High School swimmers in 1996. I had discovered TI and found that many of the TI drills were very similar to the ones we were using so it made perfect sense to incorporate more TI into my teaching and my own swimming at that time. The way we taught ELV to our swimmers was to have them place their arm extended (but relaxed) on another swimmer’s shoulder or an object. Then they would rotate the elbow up by rotating the upper arm (humerus) and out keeping the shoulder muscles completely relaxed. This is a pretty hard skill to learn but once learned it was easily applied in the water. The only problem I saw was that while swimming and executing this elbow/upper arm rotation the shoulder and arm were still extended down into the water still putting a lot of pressure on the shoulder region.
Fast forward to approximately 2005 and I was no longer coaching High School and able to devote more time to my own swimming I began to reacquaint with TI. The stroke had changed and I began to retool my stroke to the new change. The real change in my ELV came at my TI Certification Training with CoachDave. During the SpearSwitch teaching progression I discovered that by leaving the opposite arm ‘flopped out’ in the extended position while the recovering arm speared with the hip and shoulder drive that the shoulders rotated with this action. By keeping the opposite arm extended the shoulder rotation pulled my extended arm back rotating my humerus up and out pulling the elbow into the position that I had taught in isolation previously. From this position the hand and forearm easily dropped directly below the elbow resulting in an ELV automatically and naturally.
I have subsequently found my clients both private and at workshops can obtain ELV/HEC easily as well. To accomplish this I have them really focus in on leaving the opposite arm extended in a relaxed manner as they do their spearswitches and wait until they feel the shoulder rotation pulling the arm back while focussing on keeping the upper arm pushed as far as possible before they drop their hand and forearm under their elbow. By doing this very slowly and deliberately until they feel this natural occurrence I do not let them progress to uninterrupted spearswitches. In my opinion this is the building block for learning front quadrant swimming. If mastered during spearswitches it is easily applied during swingswtiches and whole stroke swimming.
Are they elite swimmers? No. Do they have all the other physical attributes of the elite swimmers? No. Can they achieve ELV/HEC? Yes.
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  #49  
Old 10-23-2011
cynthiam cynthiam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToddE View Post
I have subsequently found my clients both private and at workshops can obtain ELV/HEC easily as well. To accomplish this I have them really focus in on leaving the opposite arm extended in a relaxed manner as they do their spearswitches and wait until they feel the shoulder rotation pulling the arm back while focussing on keeping the upper arm pushed as far as possible before they drop their hand and forearm under their elbow. By doing this very slowly and deliberately until they feel this natural occurrence I do not let them progress to uninterrupted spearswitches. In my opinion this is the building block for learning front quadrant swimming. If mastered during spearswitches it is easily applied during swingswtiches and whole stroke swimming.
Ahhhh, now this is something I can practice. I've been trying to get closer to the timing and the feeling of it happening but haven't really known exactly what to do. This makes sense to me.

When you write "keeping the upper arm pushed as far as possible" do you mean as far forward? Up?

And when the shoulder rotation is happening, what position should the forearm be in?
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  #50  
Old 10-23-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Todd, is it an accurate summary of your HEC method that having extended the lead arm one simply leaves it there and switches one's attention to reaching fully forwards with the other arm?

This works for me and is perhaps my most significant insight since taking up freestyle.
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