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  #1  
Old 09-15-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
Default straight arm traction

This girl has exceptional good traction.
Slipfactor = amount of handslip/ amount of head forward movement= 10/17.5=0.57.
The avarage swimmer in your local pool has a slipfactor of about 1.5-2 at half the speed.
slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation.


straight 1r


straight 2r


straight 3r


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auO0L9hmP0E

to be more precise, starting point is where hand is definetely is starting to move backwards. Thats ok here, hand is even blurred by faster movement.

the newer, more prcis slip factor becomes:
handslip 12.5 -1= 11.5
head movement 20.5 -4.5 = 16
slipfactor =11.5/16= 0.72
So, worse than 0,57, differnce 0.15, but still..who does it better at this pace?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 09-20-2018 at 09:39 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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OK, so how does she do it??


"slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation."


That's it??
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  #3  
Old 09-16-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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haha,well yes. Thats what it comes down to for an outside observer.
I keep it smple this time haha. How you achieve that is another question...
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  #4  
Old 09-16-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Reading between the lines, I think to myself, you mean, all my obsessive taking notes, trying to micromanage all the exacting details of how to grab that extra millimetre of length on each stroke, by keeping that exact elbow flexion angle that is the average of all those elite swimmers out there...turns out to be wasted intellectual exercise, because the efficiency actually has got nothing to do with that elbow angle or any other easily measured external detail that the obsessive video analyser can glean. It's actually due to some mystical hidden secret sauce that can't be transmitted. At least not easily transmitted, with some simple rule that the beginner can easily follow. Sigh. Again.

Actually I'm only half joking. Perhaps a useful working rule might be the 3rd factor you enumerated -- the "little speed variation" factor. One can actually take that and try to make use of that idea. Don't pull hard, increase the stroke force gradually, and spread the stroke force over a greater percentage of the stroke cycle.

Last edited by sclim : 09-16-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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  #5  
Old 09-16-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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cant you send me some footage (pm ) of your stroke to make talking easier?

constant speed is an important one.
Imagine walking slowly 3km/h and dragging a 100 kg treetrunk through the water.
If you keep that trunk at a constant 3 km/h, you can imagine you dont need so much force to keep it floating forward. A bit of water flowing around it, walking very slow....
Now vary the speed of that treetrunc between 1 and 5 km/h in an alternating manner, whilke keeping the avarage speed the same 3km/h.
You can almost feel your arms getting tired already from pulling that thing forward and releasing it all the time instead of just dragging it forward calmly.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 09-16-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-16-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
cant you send me some footage (pm ) of your stroke to make talking easier?

constant speed is an important one.
Imagine walking slowly 3km/h and dragging a 100 kg treetrunk through the water.
If you keep that trunk at a constant 3 km/h, you can imagine you dont need so much force to keep it floating forward. A bit of water flowing around it, walking very slow....
Now vary the speed of that treetrunc between 1 and 5 km/h in an alternating manner, whilke keeping the avarage speed the same 3km/h.
You can almost feel your arms getting tired already from pulling that thing forward and releasing it all the time instead of just dragging it forward calmly.
No, you don't need to convince me further -- I fully agree with your logic. In fact, use the infinitesimal calculus approach and imagine the swimmer undergoing variations of, say, + and - 1/4 mph. He may well enjoy the rest while he slows 1/4 mph and benefit from the lack of needing to put out as much power when he decelerates and coasts at his new speed of 2.75 mph. But then he has to accelerate to 3.25mph again (to keep his mean speed at 3.0 mph). This acceleration costs him more power than he saves during his deceleration. Equally dismaying, his energy cost overcoming drag at 3.25 mph (which is proportional to the cube of his velocity in the water), despite the saving at 2.75 mph, will always add up to more than that of the swimmer who doesn't vary his velocity and keeps precisely at 3.0 mph all the time.

Now, to develop the skill and the co-ordination to keep at 3.0 mph all the time without thinking so hard about it that something else screws up...as you say, that's another thing again.

The video thing is particularly awkward in the pool where I spend almost all my time. They have a thing about cameras due to an incident a few years ago. I may try and work something out, maybe. Or at another pool.

Last edited by sclim : 09-16-2018 at 08:41 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,
Quote:
This girl has exceptional good traction.
Slipfactor = amount of handslip/ amount of head forward movement= 10/17.5=0.57.
The avarage swimmer in your local pool has a slipfactor of about 1.5-2 at half the speed.
slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation.
:-) ... yes, and now let's all swim that way, and we will be elites at once...

You're near to Rued's(?) researches and his results with it. Doubtless your points are important, but they can't be the whole story (too much oversimplification this time?). Emerging questions (to myself?):

- How can she move the arm from your screen1 to screen2 without initiating bopping? Her kick won't help, it's too late for it. Must be an extemely fine-tuned movement.
- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello ZT,

- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner
you arc forward and down on the extention whilst using core to drive the extention
this mantains the streamlining effect of fqs without going full 3/4 catch up

but to get here you have to spend alot of time doing 3/4 catchup and become attuned to streamlining glide effect
then you can slowly move to a more continious arm cycle and maintain the fwd gliding streamline of the FQS
with enough practice you can achive the same streamline glide within a more continious stroke and know the point when you start losing it
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Re original question

someone posted a video by coachsuzzane the other day showing "overpulling"
Or overpowering the pull

the answer is to maintian a steady constant pressure rather than overmuscle it
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello MF,

sorry, can't get the relation to ZT's example. That's a really different kind of stroke than the one in Suzanne's pulling-hints. (Straight arm recovery, straigth arm pull (does she?), straight arm catch(is it?), straight arm push... Can we find these phases in a Mississippi Steamer... don't take that question serious(!))...

BTW, as Sclim posted, you have to build up the force from front to end as soft as possible. Otherwise you'll get an unwanted edge in movement when you start. And to get that, what Terry told:"Nevertheless how fast I swim, I never press hard..." seems to be a miracle.

Pressing firm but so softly, that water just wants to start moving away but doesn't, seems to be a skill being learned only with extreme patience and loooong time if not gifted as the highperformers seems to be. (In my case I have to think in decades, but I've to learn everything in somewhat hard work, because I can't find any wished talent presented from nature... hard, but very interesting. Learning FS is mirroring that..)

Best regards,
Werner
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