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  #1  
Old 03-01-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Zenturtle
Default Rolling like a log?

Personally, I am moving gradually away from the rolling like a log idea.
To be more precise, the length of the log is shrinking to a part that is formed by hips and a flat lowerback. Thats left as the rotating eye of the tornado.
The rest is free to move and be used as part of the kinetic chain.
By shortening the log to this smaller part more muscles in the body can be used to support and control the stroke.
More muscles requires more control, but its worth the effort. Swimming like a running cheetah is my new ideal movement idea.
It feels very liberating to be released from the restrictive log model.
Probably more people have some kind of personal rigid ideal mental model in their heads.
Never stop questioning if this rigid model is really helping you forward.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-01-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-01-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,

first let me say, an orthopaedist told me turning shoulder against hip or vice versa isn't as dangerous in swimming as in playing Golf or Squash (my most liked sport for some thirty years...), because the spine is not additionally loaded with weight while moving. So there will be some degree of healthy freedom in your experiments...

Quote:
To be more precise, the length of the log is shrinking to a part that is formed by hips and a flat lowerback. Thats left as the rotating eye of the tornado.
When reading this (with my TI-eyes) the thought of the body towed from the head in front is a much more stable one, than to carry a streamlined form if the head and upper body has to be held aligned while being (seperated) pushed from your powerhouse. That's more like the kayak in four pieces (head-upper body-powerhouse-legs) held by joints.

Quote:
The rest is free to move and be used as part of the kinetic chain.
Yees, but the chain will be much more streamlined if towed from one end than pushed from the middle.

Quote:
It feels very liberating to be released from the restrictive log model.
But we'll have to decide, if this "new/old" freedom will hold the best streamline or if the freedom leads us to do more breaks of it. At least I think streamline is an extremely restrictive model, and we should weigh very carefully if the new freedom is worth breaking this principle.

Quote:
Probably more people have some kind of personal rigid ideal mental model in their heads.
The chain- or wave-model seems to me to be a good one. The log-model should not be seen as restriction, but more as the solid-body-model that doesn't exist in reality.

The band width for experiments from "inside" may be fairly large. Remember a student who asked me to show the difference between hip- and shoulder driven FS. I did and felt an extreme difference... but he couldn't realize it before I swam again with which I thought was an exaggerated exaggeration.

Quote:
Never stop questioning if this rigid model is really helping you forward.
This is not only true for the rigid model but for everything. Sometimes jealous about what you can ask so everything...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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We will see how it goes. Its all just an opinion based on current experience.

Your statements about streamline would be a lot more meaningfull if you would have objective information about optimal streamline shapes.
As discussed in the streamline ABC, you dont have any, so your guess is as good as mine.
I agree off course, that at some point, it gets obvious that a certain posture or movement isnt streamlined anymore, but there is a pretty large grey movement space to move through where hard conclusions about the streamline consequences cant be drawn.
Within this range I am trying to find out how to add as much building blocks as possible in the kinetic chain.
Finding the optimal compromise between propulsion and drag.
Like you said, things can feel quite different inside while it looks more or less the same from the outside.
An experienced coach will see the difference right away though I guess.

Rolling like a log isnt bad, but I think its bit like a chain with long steel rods.
Thats better than a chain with to weak elastic bands between the shakles, but a chain with shorter pieces of steel rod in between works better as a chain.
I you understand what I mean ;-)

The idea of a kayak is also just an idea. We are a a mass of muscles and bones. Keeping everyting tight as a kayak isnt my idea of optimal effective movement. It has to be kept pretty tight though. But how tight? And where exactly?
Always some questions left to keep us occupied in the pool.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-01-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi ZT, sometimes your discussions about how to optimize swimming technique seem to assume an unrealistic form, so I would like to ask you some questions. What tools do you have available to study your own swimming? Do you film yourself? Do you discuss your technique with other people who watch you swim? Do you have hydrodynamic drag models to study what shapes your body makes in the water and how much drag they produce? I know you spend a lot of time studying video of other people swimming, but when you try to imitate them, what tools do you have available to judge your success in this?

For most of us, if we had unlimited resources, we would analyze our swimming very differently from the way we are currently doing it. In my case, I got a lot out of filming myself, except that I started to feel like I was spending more time at the pool working to get good shots than I was spending swimming. So I have (unfortunately) given up on that. These days, I use my own very subjective feeling as well as the other basic tools such as timing myself, SPL and TT. I do experiments, but in the end my assessment of the results is all based on feeling, and I know from watching film of myself how misleading this feeling can sometimes be. So what objective measures do you have of your own swimming?
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  #5  
Old 03-01-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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half an hour of typing lost in cyberspace again.

in short:
had a few coaches and more than 10 good swimmers take a look to point out flaws.
Looked pretty good with a few minor flaws.
Swum in pool with mirrorlike bottom. No nasty surprises.
Dont have footage.

dryland muscle memory of certain movement -> transfer to pool muscle memory.
make this pool memory a habit.
Master building blocks. Store memory of good execution in memory.
Scan all buildingblocks feedback during stroke. Repair disfunctioning building blocks during stroke while fresh as much as possible.
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  #6  
Old 03-02-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
half an hour of typing lost in cyberspace again.

in short:
had a few coaches and more than 10 good swimmers take a look to point out flaws.
Looked pretty good with a few minor flaws.
Swum in pool with mirrorlike bottom. No nasty surprises.
Dont have footage.

dryland muscle memory of certain movement -> transfer to pool muscle memory.
make this pool memory a habit.
Master building blocks. Store memory of good execution in memory.
Scan all buildingblocks feedback during stroke. Repair disfunctioning building blocks during stroke while fresh as much as possible.
Hi ZT, the first paragraph you wrote above sounds like objective feedback on your swimming. The second paragraph sounds more like a description of how you teach yourself stuff. The reason I am being so picky is because you are claiming to Werner and others that all of this should be resolved using objective measures and (if I understand you correctly) that those objective measures aren't that hard to get. It seems to me that the objective measures you have used for yourself aren't what I would wish for if I were trying to resolve fundamental issues about swimming technique. This is not to say that you haven't been successful in teaching yourself good technique. Rather it is only to point out that the primary check you have on your technique is either subjective feeling or timing yourself. Those are both very good sources of feedback, but only the second one (timing yourself) is objective.

I think that most of us are in your situation, and you have probably done a better job with the resources at your disposal than, for example, I have. But none of us really have much in the way of objective measures of our swimming technique, aside from timing and stroke count. This is why so many of the issues we discuss on this forum are so difficult to resolve.
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  #7  
Old 03-02-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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With objective measures I mean knowing how a certain swim stroke translates to a certain efficiency.
Even with the best footage its impossible to precisely say whats right or wrong.
TI assumes a certain style or streamlined position is best, but they cant proove it.
Neither can other swim schools.
So within certain limits we all are moving in an uncertain grey zone where the only tools are speed and relative effort to guide us to our personal optimal stroke.

An uncertainty about the spine bending for example:
The resultant arm force is acting outside the centerline, certainly if you pull on wide tracks.
This steers your vessel to the other side. making it move a bit from side to side.
Bending the spine a bit together with the pulling arm countersteers this effect, naking the upperbody move straight forward instead of slightly sideways.
This slight spine bending happens to also be the natural action to deliver maxinal force with the upperbody. We are talking details, but not beyond perception.
Nobody knows exactly what is optimal.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-02-2017 at 06:20 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-02-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT and Danny,

we posted in another thread about objectives and the difficulties of measurement too. If I remember right, ZT posted streamline can be ovserved and measured nearly easy.

Quote:
TI assumes a certain style or streamlined position is best, but they cant proove it.
Please have in mind, Terry developed TI mainly for adult upset swimmers. Health on very first and as most effortless endurance as possible second and velocitiy and power anywhere later on. As Coach I do really tend to say the first two are prooved. At least in a statistic way from some (hundred?)thousands swimmers.

Quote:
So within certain limits we all are moving in an uncertain grey zone where the only tools are speed and relative effort to guide us to our personal optimal stroke.
Yes, but we are often mixing our experience with the assumptions to what we think why elites are doing somethings. So my measurements for a l ap are most precise with counting SPL and knowing what my TT is set to. A far too rough tool for elites and their coaches.

Back to thread's title, some things seeming clear (to me):

If you don't swim like a log and adding an angle between hips and shoulders you are expanding your surface watched from front and this must produce additional drag. We all know how different a well speared arm feels to a (more) drag producing with hand's position just some cm away. And both shoulders out of (stream)line will add more surface then these cm. I'll admit, drag produced by turned shoulders is more difficult to feel and realize, because it's body-driven.

Quote:
The resultant arm force is acting outside the centerline, certainly if you pull on wide tracks.
This steers your vessel to the other side. making it move a bit from side to side.
Well that's physics, but the "wide" tracks are more a "to be felt picture" (and even more for the recovery arm). They are on shoulder width and not as wide as possbile. So the tracks should be in an optimum for health(!), and best compromise in leverages between propulsion and disruption of direction. Our picture of "hand holding place" seems extremely helpful for that (to me). And body rotation will also help to get a not as large lever.

ZT, once you posted a link to excavators driving tree trunks. Think this would be impossible to do with tree trunks with joints in the middle but like "long logs".

Quote:
Bending the spine a bit together with the pulling arm countersteers this effect, naking the upperbody move straight forward instead of slightly sideways.
This slight spine bending happens to also be the natural action to deliver maxinal force with the upperbody. We are talking details, but not beyond perception.
I'd tell my students to try to get their necessary countersteers in a more balanced way from a logged body, the opposite spearing arm and optimized levers while rolling (with imagining holded hand on track)...

ZT, you're doubting the kayak-principle. Hmm... But it is easier to throw a rigid spear away than a three-parted. And if you'll throw a three-parted, it will be easier to put your force-atackpoint into the first part. That's about stable and instable equilibrium. It does not mean there aren't artists who can throw their three-parted spears much farther than I my rigid one... or throw it much farther attacking on the last part than I attacking in the first... (And if you'll start learning balancing a boomstick on your fingertips you should not start with a three-parted one...)

Quote:
Nobody knows exactly what is optimal.
Yes, and at least everyone has to decide for himself what's optimal overall inside.

Some weeks ago I had a shower-chat with an extremely powerful but as inefficient swimmer. Me:"You are swimming with extreme power into every stroke..." He laughing:"Yes! That's why I do it. And when I go home I do feel as the luckiest man in the world, everytime!" So we talked on about well being in the water and the life itself. He definitely wasn't/isn't a TI-swimmer...

We should go on thinking, trying, talking and dreaming...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Still dreaming about forum's silver-surfers meeting anywhere in the world. (Didn't talk with him, but think Terry would join us, if somehow possible...)
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  #9  
Old 03-02-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
With objective measures I mean knowing how a certain swim stroke translates to a certain efficiency.
Even with the best footage its impossible to precisely say whats right or wrong.
TI assumes a certain style or streamlined position is best, but they cant proove it.
Neither can other swim schools.
So within certain limits we all are moving in an uncertain grey zone where the only tools are speed and relative effort to guide us to our personal optimal stroke.

An uncertainty about the spine bending for example:
The resultant arm force is acting outside the centerline, certainly if you pull on wide tracks.
This steers your vessel to the other side. making it move a bit from side to side.
Bending the spine a bit together with the pulling arm countersteers this effect, naking the upperbody move straight forward instead of slightly sideways.
This slight spine bending happens to also be the natural action to deliver maxinal force with the upperbody. We are talking details, but not beyond perception.
Nobody knows exactly what is optimal.
ZT, I think I agree with your comments above about objective measures.

Concerning wide tracks, it seems to me that looking at pictures of arm strokes in elite swimmers years ago, the S-shaped pull led to an arm stroke under the body. Of course, if the body is rotated enough, this pull is from the side in the water anyway, but I think if the body has a small enough rotation than the stroke is under the body and doesn't torque as much. My experience paddling a canoe is that at the end of each stroke you need to issue a correction for the torque, especially if you are the only person paddling. Anyway, if you finish your stroke with your elbow away from your body, your hand will be closer to your center line.
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2017
ScoopUK
 
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I wrote a long reply but basically my conclusion can be summarised as...

* Forget what you look like, the only objective measurement that matters is the wall clock.
* Symmetry in your stroke has no relation to speed.
* A scrappy looking swimmer can be a fast efficient swimmer.
* 'Feel for the water' is a myth so find a stroke that works without finesse.

With that in mind is video analysis always that helpful?

Swimming isn't a scientific paper. It doesn't have to survive the process of peer review. You just have to beat them in the water.
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