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  #11  
Old 08-18-2011
dzhou01 dzhou01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladtobedifferent View Post
Ok - redone my maths

28 strokes in 40 seconds (for 25m) so 10 strokes takes 40 sec /2.8 = 1.43

I have done this with a whole range of different logs for me and they are all in the 1.38 to 1.45 range.

So guessing that I should work on my stroke length and my catch ??
My time is similar to yours. Should we do EVF in catch to increase SL? or only need to work on balance/streamline?
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  #12  
Old 08-18-2011
terry terry is offline
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Forget EVF. It's a very complex skill that requires impeccable balance and stability. It's also something that requires shoulder range of motion few people have. Instead think about the following:
1) The most significant contributor - by far - to greater Stroke Length, is drag reduction. Move through water. Don't move the water around.
2) When you do think of propulsion your first thought should be relaxing your hand so your fingers point down and your palm back from entry to exit.
3) Your second thought should be Patient Hand and Hold, rather than Pull/Push.
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi gladtobedifferent

What about your push-off? Mine takes about three to five beeps of a Tempo Trainer ( set at about 1.4) . This is a chance to practice your superman glide. I think I travel about five meters off a push. Much further off a dive of course, which is why my time for a 25m off a dive is a couple of seconds faster than my time from a push.

Your SPL will come down. But, anyway, you may be one of those swimmers who are more comfortable with a faster turnover. I hope this isn't TI heresy.

The main thing is not to slip water (known as "spinning your wheels"). See Terry's post above.
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2011
gladtobedifferent gladtobedifferent is offline
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Cool SPL and slipping through the water

I dont push off very far from the wall as I feel it is cheating. If I am tired I do, but otherwise do a short or non existent push off.

I focus very much on not starting the pull until the other hand has entered the water, being patient. This is somethign my coach got me to focus on.

My catch is not great. I noticed an excellent swimmer the other day whose catch seemed to pull her hand from shoulder width start to bending at the elbow and the palm coming to below her face (looking straight on). I have been doing my pull part of the catch with my arm 'over the barrel' in line with my shoulder and wonder if I should be letting my palm move nearer to the middle as I would catch more water.

My catch involves - slightly cupping my hand as it goes in, keeping elbow high and passing along the 'over the barrel' arm, but I know that it is not moving me as far forward as it could do.

Also wonder if I should be patient with my lead hand before the recovery hand briefly joins it before the next pull. ie glide a bit with my patient hand before slightly pulling it back as the recovery hand enters the water. That would make my stoke longer. Think that may be what terry means ?
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2011
terry terry is offline
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Richard
There's no heresy at all in a faster stroke rate. It's a skill - at least when you combine it with a strong effort to keep your stroke efficient, quiet and relaxed. What makes an effort to increase stroke rate a desirable part of practice is to increase it mindfully, not the heedless churning that's more common. Doing so with the Tempo Trainer is the best way to get both benefit and enjoyment - perhaps even a Flow experience - from doing so.

In every Tempo Trainer practice I do, usually 60% or more is devoted to testing my ability to increase tempo while maintaining grace, ease and efficiency. It's one of the surest ways I know to grow more robust brain circuits.

I posted my latest example at #33 on this thread.
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Last edited by terry : 08-19-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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  #16  
Old 08-19-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladtobedifferent View Post
Ok - redone my maths

28 strokes in 40 seconds (for 25m) so 10 strokes takes 40 sec /2.8 = 1.43

I have done this with a whole range of different logs for me and they are all in the 1.38 to 1.45 range.

So guessing that I should work on my stroke length and my catch ??
SPL=25-28 for 25m.... SR=1.43 ?

Coincidentally that is exactly the Stroke Rate I was using this morning with my TEMPO TRAINER. My SPL=17

I think I have achieved decent balance and streamlining but the propulsive part of my stroke still needs work.

So I agree with TERRY... if you just work on your balance & streamlining (how you move through the water) you will easily reach the SPL=17-20 range in my opinion.

In fact you can try the following...

1. Do 4x25m of Superman Glide focusing on balance (Keep head low)
2. Do 4x25m of skating focusing on balance
3. Swim 4x25m Freestyle immediately after and just think "GLIDE, GLIDE, GLIDE..." after each hand entry.

ALEX

Last edited by Alex-SG : 08-19-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladtobedifferent View Post
I dont push off very far from the wall as I feel it is cheating. If I am tired I do, but otherwise do a short or non existent push off.
Glad, a poor pushoff IS cheating, only not the kind you think. Instead you're cheating yourself . . . of a better stroke and better swimming overall.

My advice is: When in the pool, swim the best you possibly can. And when in open water, do the same.

A good pushoff in the pool means you start stroking in a balanced position with the momentum to be able to stroke smoothly from the first stroke. A poor pushoff is likely to result in your needing to fix balance and use excess force to create momentum.

Not just my advice. Mike Pigg came to a TI Weekend Workshop in the early 90s. At the time he was the #1 Olympic distance triathlete in the US and consistently among the best in the world. When another triathlete asked if it was a good idea to neglect the pushoff while training in the pool to mimic open water, he said the following: When I'm swimming I try to practice like the best swimmers in the world. I do the same in the other disciplines. In the pool that means striving to do great turns and pushoffs.
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  #18  
Old 08-20-2011
CoachPaulB CoachPaulB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladtobedifferent View Post
Ok - so I can do 400 m in one go. I can do 1000m in a swim session (eg 200m, 100m x 7, 50 x 2) and am doing 2 sessions a week. I am not sure how I can get to swim a mile - which is my next goal.

I am a slow swimmer (a lot faster than I was though), doing 100m in about 2mins 25 and doing around 25-28 spl for 25m and a stroke rate of 21-23.

Appreciate any tips or suggestions of a plan and practise I should be doing to try and get to that 1 mile distance.

Thanks
gtbd
There certainly seems to be an allure associated with swimming a mile. Mostly I find that people that are non swimmers can't fathom the idea that one could go that far in the water. They usually say "what without stopping either?". Nevertheless it is a significant distance to swim and one that is worthy of accomplishing if one sets their mind to it.
Shane Eversfield remarked at TI coaches training school that it is accomplished one stroke at a time. This may sound like an over simplification but, in fact, for myself at least it has been a very useful way for me to approach long distant events. Assuming that you are deploying some of TI's concepts and seeing what you've accomplished already I would think that you could stay the course and build you distance gradually.When you start to get tired try and determine if you are tired because you let your stroke fall apart, in which case you should stop and regroup or that you just need to work on better conditioning. If it is conditioning then you might try going to the pool and just focus on doing the intervals...checking heart rate and recovery rate and lap times etc. When you've made measurable progress then set a date where you get a few days rest before you try your mile again. One stroke at a time.
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  #19  
Old 08-20-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Well done on your progress so far, a lot of people find it helps to swim a longer distance in the pool by using some recovery legs of breast stroke. you could start with every fifth.

This way you can build your stamina whilst getting some recovery without stopping.

64 lengths of a pool non stop can be long mentally and physically when you start, so its good to use the breast stroke lengths as markers. Once you have completed that a few times move to every 6 lengths breast stroke and so on until you are swimming the whole mile.
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  #20  
Old 08-21-2011
gladtobedifferent gladtobedifferent is offline
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Alex – have i done my maths wrong – rubbish at this kind of thing which is why I like gadgets that do all this for you !! If i have please let me know and where I have gone wrong !

Terry – thanks for push off advice, will happily introduce this back into my training. I only started to omit the push off once I was practising for my open water in July. So will definitely bring that back in.

Alex – like the workout you suggested.

I did manage to do a length with total strokes of 20 for 50m but it took a lot of focus and effort and I was not able to keep it up for my next set of 4x25m (went back to 25/26 per length). I did feel I was doing the same lengthening and glide but the numbers on my pool mate clearly didn’t show that I was doing 20 again !!

Andyinnorway- like the idea of doing breast stroke once every 5 lengths as it would let me re group, re focus. Will try that when i go to the pool tomorrow.

Lots of interesting points coming up.

I had a terrible swim on Friday – maybe its like running sometimes you have a bad one, but its the first time for me with swimming. It started ok, then I managed 20 spl average / length for the two lengths and felt encouraged, but when i couldn’t replicate that I started to get disheartened....then the fast lane (I know it is odd that I am in it !) got businer and busier and I had to start increasing my stroke rate, and eventually felt my stroke rate fell apart and at one point I felt static going down the lane !! At 28 lengths i got out as despite lots of focus nothing was getting better and my stroke was falling apart, so thought best to get out.

Only managed 2 times in the pool last week again – and know I need to do three this week and try and break through doing more than 20 lengths in one go, as part of the journey. Will try what you suggested Alex in at least one of my sessions. And definitely adding back in the push off !
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