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  #11  
Old 06-15-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by dprevish View Post
...First filming of stroke about 6 month ago: way over rotating. Just realizing it helped to set the stage for weeks and months now of remedial retraining to get back to a better balanced stroke. Now I can breath again on the left.... (straight deep arm, soccer ball kick 180 degree arms w/little front quad timing), ...
Hi Dave, lots of interesting remarks, in particular the 100m sets with 30s rests, but I wanted to assk about was the breathing and over rotation. Can you explaain a bit how this has gone/goes together for you?

The image of a "soccer ball" kick is interesting too. But in my image there's an increase in knee bend and out-of-the-shadow stuff going on. Could you elaaborate a bit?

Lastly, I don't understand the 180' arm reference. Could you explain that?

Thanks, and all the best for the tri !
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Hi Dave, lots of interesting remarks, in particular the 100m sets with 30s rests, but I wanted to assk about was the breathing and over rotation. Can you explaain a bit how this has gone/goes together for you?

The image of a "soccer ball" kick is interesting too. But in my image there's an increase in knee bend and out-of-the-shadow stuff going on. Could you elaaborate a bit?

Lastly, I don't understand the 180' arm reference. Could you explain that?

Thanks, and all the best for the tri !
Talvi,

Let me show you a clip first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxcRj8o34gc

This is a video with my iphone from now 5 months ago. Though I had managed to attain a reasonable race pace for my tri; it was at a high cost. In this video my stoke rate is right at an unsustainable 1.0 (TT) and the excess power/lack of streamline and balance that I demonstrate in every stroke cycle is evident in :50, :52 & :54:

Over rotating to the right side (and to the left), but especially the right. It created havoc on left side breathing as I was always "knifing" into the spear and driving my body down. Notice there is no bend in my elbow as I start the pull at nearly fully rotated and then attempt to power myself forward. I'm surprised my shoulder(s) have never blown out from the stress.
Arms at 180 degrees is just me noting that there is no front quadrant timing here, when one arm is entering the water the other is already surging back (not a "patient hand" at all).
The soccer ball kick is just that I mean I am bending my knee and kicking hard every stroke (while the legs are fully scissored to hold balance and out of shadow).
In short: I'm a mess

It has been a lot of work to try and re-establish a better stroke; slowly I'm coming back from it.
Recently I actually started swimming only in fist gloves as I have found that it requires me to exercise balance and streamline and restricts me from yanking with my hands.

The 100 yd repeats at 30 sec rest:
Just like running/walking intervals, building the aerobic/stamina is not dependent on continuous swimming as much as it is to hold heart rate up over a time period. This train sequence is to prevent me from slipping back into my old ruts in the pursuit of the required endurance I'll need for the OW 1500.
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2014
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dprevish View Post
The 100 yd repeats at 30 sec rest:
Just like running/walking intervals, , building stamina is not dependent on continuous swimming as much as it is to hold heart rate up over a time period. This sequence is to prevent me from slipping back into my old ruts in the pursuit of the required endurance I'll need for the OW 1500.
The most important function of interval repeats is to allow you to maintain a faster pace without fatigue. In a longer swim you'd swim slower at the same effort level. While this does produce endurance, as in doing track intervals in running, the more important effect--if you are swimming efficiently (holding a stroke count within the Green Zone range for your height) is that you hold that Stroke Length at a faster tempo.

Same stroke count at faster pace = faster tempo.
Same stroke count at slower pace = slower tempo.

So--by facilitating faster paces--interval repeats allow you to practice a faster tempo while maintaining efficient stroke length while keeping effort level sustainable. This is highly valuable training for your neuro-motor system. Aerobic system training is like the icing on the cake.
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  #14  
Old 06-17-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Thanks Terry,

Your articulation is more accurate. I finished a half marathon a few weeks ago and the final weeks I added long cruise intervals interspersed with 60 sec walk/jog. It was a very successful run; knocked :13/mi off my pace last year. I felt that not only my lactate threshold was taxed and trained in those repeats but that it afforded me with a window of time to refresh my core and muscle recruitment for the next repeat, especially when I got to the 4th 2 mile repeat. I decided to take this to the pool. For me it's not really to train my race pace for the swim, but to prevent me from unwinding the work I'm putting in to hold my TI form.
I had forgotten as well about the Green Zone. I'm going to search out that link again.
Being that I've got Fist Gloves I'm sure there is a conversion or approximate drop in DPS for that?
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  #15  
Old 06-17-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Thanks Terry,

Your articulation is more accurate. I finished a half marathon a few weeks ago and in the final weeks build I added long cruise intervals interspersed with 60 sec walk/jog. It was a very successful run; knocked :13/mi off my pace last year. I felt that not only my lactate threshold was taxed and trained in those repeats but that it afforded me with a window of time to refresh my core and muscle recruitment for the next repeat, especially when I got to the 4th 2 mile repeat. I decided to take this to the pool. For me it's not really to train my race pace for the swim, but to prevent me from unwinding the work I'm putting in to hold my TI form.
I had forgotten as well about the Green Zone. I'm going to search out that link again.
Being that I've got Fist Gloves I'm sure there is a conversion or approximate drop in DPS for that?
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  #16  
Old 06-17-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Terry,

Just a note:
I reread the article while searching for the Green Zone on "The Right Stroke Count".
I guess I never caught it, but going from 50 stroke/50 meter to 25 over the years is dramatic...wow. Especially when considered that our "engines" are not as strong as when we were in our youth. Inspiring.
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2014
terry terry is offline
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Dave
That's a bit out of date. I did 25 strokes once, but when I began using Tempo Trainer around 2004 realized my stroke count had gotten so low that it was limiting my speed.
Today I did 5 x 200 LCM averaging 41SPL and 3:25
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  #18  
Old 06-18-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Terry,

Thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, given all factors involved that is still a dramatic gain across all tempos.
Putting it in contrast to my 200 meter, which has been awhile since last swimming for stats (golf):
I'd have to expend about sub-max effort(zone 4 I refer to it as), to approach that 3:25 and at the expense of about 24 - 25 spl., so it speaks for itself as to the profit of balance and passive and active streamline.
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  #19  
Old 06-18-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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Terry,

Thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, given all factors involved that is still a dramatic gain across all tempos.
Putting it into contrast to my 200 meter, which has been awhile since last swimming for stats (golf):
I'd have to expend about sub-max effort (zone 4 I refer to it as), to approach that 3:25 and at the expense of about 24 - 25 spl., so it speaks for itself as to the profit of balance and passive and active streamline which I strive to hone through mindful practice
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for your answer and my apologies for not saying that earlier.

I was watching your video again now and at 0:53 you can see that your right foot is at right angles to your leg. The same thing can be seen at 0:54 with your left. That angled foot must be creating a huge amount of drag, and resistance that you could eliminate quite easily. Maybe focus on pointing your feet and then doing whatever needs to be done with the rest of your stroke to achieve that would be something you could profitably do.

I also see you as "grabbing" at the water, as if you were reaching and pulling yourself up a rope... so, old advice I know but maybe spearing a little wider, especially on your right side, would allow you to keep your axis straighter and more constant, and not having to correct on each side by "twitching".

These two things together should theoretically make a big improvement for zero cost. You will save the effort of the "twitch", and reduce drag, while improving overall streamlioning and engagement of your pull.

What do you think?
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 06-23-2014 at 12:09 PM.
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