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  #61  
Old 03-16-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Interesting, CoachKevin
Do you spear with an above the water recovery or an underwater recovery, and if underwater, is it quite a vigorous spear?
This is something I must try.
Above, because I do it as part of ZenSwitch. Set up in CoreBalance, kick gently for stability, swing the top arm forward, pause briefly, then kick, rotate, lengthen & see what happens. The spear/lengthen doesn't have to be vigorous to prove the point, just try to direct your hand so it ends up nose deep.
This is a good place to use your Fistgloves, too, Richard, if you set up in Skate. If you pull too vigorously, the FGs will let you know it, which is a clear signal that you've placed the emphasis in the wrong place!
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  #62  
Old 03-16-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Kevin

I still have a pair of fistgloves from the TI course I did a few years ago but I seldom use them. I never really took to them but do sometimes swim with hands held loosely in fists. I suppose the way to find out how they would let me know if I was pulling too hard would be to dig them out and bring them to the pool, but can I have a hint, please?

My guess is that the forward drive from rotation and spear is to do with transfer of momentum ( kinetic chain) but as one who knows very little about physics perhaps I should remain silent in case physics war breaks out again.
( ;-)
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  #63  
Old 03-16-2011
eganov eganov is offline
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In order to move in one direction you must apply a force in the opposite direction, otherwise we’d be developing free energy and could solve the world’s energy problems.

It is correct that a bullet rotating only long its central axis will not move forward. A rotating object needs what is called a helical ridge and constant rotation in the direction of the ridge. The ridge bites into the medium (at the helical angle) and provides rearward force thereby propelling the object forward. A spinning bullet has the continuous rotation but it lacks the helical ridge.

A swimming body lacks both the helical ridge and the rotation. The rotation we talk about is actually a side to side 90d rolling motion. Even if our bodies had the helical ridge the forward motion would be immediately reversed as we roll in the other direction.

As for the rotating and spearing alone moving one forward – doesn’t work. It may seem that way in a demonstration but the reality is that something else is going on. Technically, the spear through the air is a forward force that should cause one to go backward. But your hand is pretty aerodynamic and the air it is moving through is much less dense than the water your body is in so the rearward effect is minimal. Once your hand hits the water the rearward force is increased but the result is still minimal as your hand is still very streamlined. More likely moving you forward is the movement of the elbow and upper arm rearward as they recover through the water. There was also mention of a kick, which of course can provide propulsion.

Again, rotation/rolling is valuable in swimming but that in and of itself will not provide propulsion. It enables or aids the propulsion mechanisms – the kick and pull.
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  #64  
Old 03-16-2011
LearningTI LearningTI is offline
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Default Rotation,rotation, rotation

This is the very first TI discussion forum that I read. This is what I learned. First, change my user name just in case someone decides that I should be attacked personally :-).

Second, the gun analogy was very interesting because it is not necessary to turn the hand holding the gun to rotate the bullet. The rifling inside the barrel of a "gun" causes the bullet to rotate (spin). While it might be an exaggeration to say that the rotation is the propulsive force, without this rotation bullets from a hand gun don't travel very far or with great speed in a "straight" line.I know that spinning in the water won't work. But, how this applies to swimming is something that I will both think about and practice. I picked TI for both the cognitive and physical challenge.

Third, very few complex activities can be explained by single factors. Yea, learningTI will be great fun becuase for me it is both a cognitive and physical challenge (and I love the mix of the hydrodynamic and the mystical).
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  #65  
Old 03-17-2011
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CoachKris CoachKris is offline
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someone before used the example of walking, so when you are walking are you pushing anything back? You are moving your center of mass forward and keep changing points of support, certainly you need a point to apply force but does your foot pushes anything to the back?

quick test on how does kinetic chain can aid your forward movement try diving in with your arms to your side and then dive in swinging your arms forward and see what happens

And no I haven' change my mind still believe that arm getting into the water can generate force directed forward where the rest of your body (mainly arm) is a point of application of that force
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  #66  
Old 03-17-2011
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKris View Post
... try diving in with your arms to your side and then dive in swinging your arms forward and see what happens
This just reminded me of Jonathan Edwards (UK record-breaking triplejumper) and his (at the time) unqiue style of thrusting both arms forward at the moment of the jump launch.

I have nothing further to add :)
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  #67  
Old 03-17-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Jumping and diving are not the same as swimming because you have a firm surface to push off but when you do a standing long jump you do swing your arms first backward and then forward and I understand that the momentum from the arms is transferred to the body - at least that's what I was told in my youth when I used to do it. Also, in the high jump when people used the straddle technique , the momentum of the lead leg was said to be transferred to the body. Similarly, in a racing dive, the forward swing of the arms is stopped before the head enters the water and some authorities claim that the momentum from the arms is transferred to the body.

Perhaps the physics experts can confirm or deny.

My experiments with rolling and spearing today were not very successful and inconclusive. The result was more like wallowing than forward propulsion, but perhaps with practice it will improve. It is difficult to remain completely motionless in a swimming pool and exclude any action other than the roll and spear.
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