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  #21  
Old 01-03-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hey Sclim,

One thing you can do to help remove the double kick (I call it the "hew-haw" or "donkey kick") is use single fin (not the shorty's). Put the fin on your good kick leg or leg opposite the double kicking leg. Swim 50 focusing only kicking down with the finned leg, non finned leg remains soft, fluid and flowing, but with no participation (no kicking with non kicking leg). You only get one kick (with fined leg) per stroke cycle. Then switch legs, put the fin on the opposite leg and repeat same process.

This will help you learn and feel resisting kicking with the wrong leg and reduce/remove double kick or leg that does not kick aiding rotation.

Warning: You will giggle a bit in the single fin process since you will discover other stabilizing movements with the legs that should be turned off too.

Have fun!

Stuart
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  #22  
Old 01-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
So, are you doing ALL 5 described fin drills in Superman Glide?
For each 25m with fins, I probably go about 10 meters in streamline/SG position while kicking gently, then transition into whole stroke for the rest of the length.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello,

did you have a close look at Mandy's and Stuart's Video? Think Mandy shows your discussed 2BK-timing exactly, athough Stuart's comments are more on the better recognizable pinpoint of the entering hand than the arm's stroke at the chest.

Mandy's kick itself seems not be 100% that of Terry's halfmoons from the Mastery 2.0, but what I admire most of all known kicks is the elgance of the whole fishlike movement. Damned, if I could get one at least in sight of it...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: BTW are there any investigations about feet-size and kick? (Phelps seems to be a real bigfoot and Terry's where some sizes larger than mine...)

Last edited by WFEGb : 01-04-2018 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Correction
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  #24  
Old 01-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,

did you have a close look at Mandy's and Stuart's Video? Think Mandy shows your discussed 2BK-timing exactly, athough Stuart's comments are more on the better recognizable pinpoint of the entering hand than the arm's stroke at the chest.
Werner,

I have seen Mandy's video and admire it. It wasn't until watching the Freestyle Mastery series that I really paid close attention to the timing, thinking I already "knew" how the 2BK timing worked. I'll go back and compare her timing now--thanks for the suggestions.

I do agree that synching the kick to "arm passing the chest" is not very precise, but that was my first attempt at finding a way to kick later.

Next time I swim, I will try to synch the finish of the downward kick with the moment that the opposite spearing arm reaches full extension. I suggest that will provide a more precise measure, as you suggest.

Thanks!
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  #25  
Old 01-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,

did you have a close look at Mandy's and Stuart's Video? Think Mandy shows your discussed 2BK-timing exactly, athough Stuart's comments are more on the better recognizable pinpoint of the entering hand than the arm's stroke at the chest.
Just watched Coach Stuart's commentary on Mandy's 2BK again--you are certainly right, he clearly explains the exact timing that I "discovered" recently. Somehow I never really understood or noticed that the kick actually comes later in the stroke cycle than I had been doing it.

All of this reassures me that the later kick timing is the way to go.

Another question that I've posed here before: both Terry and Mandy show much more knee bend than I feel in my own kick. Shinji maybe a little less than they do. My tendency is to try to limit knee bend more than Terry and Mandy's videos show.

Am I losing significant power by trying to kick with a straighter leg? I might have to experiment a bit with degree of knee bend again.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 01-04-2018 at 04:45 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-04-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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So, compared video from Mandy, Terry, and Shinji.

It looks to me like Mandy and Shinji are doing the "flick and hold" skill where body rotation puts each leg in position for the next kick without a need for a preparatory up-kick motion. Terry shows the upkick preparatory motion I used when I started using the 2BK:

Coach Mandy

Shinji

Terry

I think the upkick is unneccessary--maybe something Terry would have worked on as he continued his kaizen practice, if he had been given more time. It certainly seems the "Flick and Hold" skill from Freestyle Mastery points in that direction. I think I'm getting close to that in my own swimming.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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The way I do my two beat ( a flick and hold I guess) is thinking about the timing of end of the upbeat as my leg feels stretched out and up poised to fire in relation to the end of the spear just before I start the catch .It's all about core body motion and rhythm setting up the kick. The downbeat seems to happen by itself or I just don't think about it. So I spear and stretch at the front, and at the same time my leg upbeats and holds without moving until I start to pull. After years of practicing to perfect my balance so my legs don't have a mind of their own and the two beat timing, this is the way my kick seems to work out. Some may think about the downbeat but for me this way seems to work best. Also by thinking about the end of the upbeat as I swim I get the benefit of feeling stretched out and balanced at that moment .

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 01-04-2018 at 07:50 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-04-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
So, compared video from Mandy, Terry, and Shinji.

It looks to me like Mandy and Shinji are doing the "flick and hold" skill where body rotation puts each leg in position for the next kick without a need for a preparatory up-kick motion. Terry shows the upkick preparatory motion I used when I started using the 2BK:

Coach Mandy

Shinji

Terry

I think the upkick is unneccessary--maybe something Terry would have worked on as he continued his kaizen practice, if he had been given more time. It certainly seems the "Flick and Hold" skill from Freestyle Mastery points in that direction. I think I'm getting close to that in my own swimming.
Comparing the 3 carefully, it seems they are all similar, with the kick quite delayed until the arm anchor on that side is well in progress. To my eye it seems that Shinji's kick is the least delayed, being initiated when the arm anchor is at about shoulder or upper chest level, whereas Mandy and Terry seem to be more like lower chest/diaphragm level when the kick is deployed. Also Shinji's catch and hold initiation (in relation to how far the spearing finger-tip has reached up on the other, catching" arm) seems the most delayed compared to the other two. But I never have noticed before in these iconic "textbook" examples of good balanced swimming how the major portion of the arm anchor phase is performed with that side "down", i.e. before that side hip and shoulder have rotated back past 0 degrees, which in all 3 of these demonstrations is the body rotation angle when the anchor arm passes the lower chest/diaphragm.

Hmm, if Shinji's kick is least delayed, and his catch and hold initiation are the most delayed, then it makes sense that the kicks would end up earlier in relation to the arm hold phase. That seems to confirm that what I'm seeing is accurate (although I find it all maddeningly hard to catch with my eye accurately).

Interestingly, too, I found, compared to the other 2 younger demonstrators, Terry's angled feet stick out a little more during the glide phase (during the actual kick flick the back pressure of the water seems to fold his foot flippers back reasonably well). But due to his excellent balance, and where the feet end up in the "shadow" of his slipstream, it really doesn't make any significant difference, i.e his SPL stays low. That's quite reassuring, for an old fogey like me. Or maybe it shouldn't be, because who can say whether I can get even close to Terry's excellent body control and balance!

Last edited by sclim : 01-04-2018 at 08:33 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-04-2018
daveblt daveblt is offline
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I don't think everyone is going to have the same exact timing . I just try to go by feel . If you are swimming with good rhythm and are well balanced my guess is that you should just know by sensory feel when the moment in your stroke is right to kick and pull without it feeling disconnected instead of trying to match someone else's timing exactly .In this first video though it seems like their pull is at least halfway through as their flick and hold kick happens. In the second video it seems to happen a little sooner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72vWHxvn6c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u90UAHuJYyw

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 01-04-2018 at 11:17 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-05-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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It seems to me that all of these swimmers have approximately the same timing of their kick. For me personally, the surprise is that they stay on their sides for so long, whereas I have tended to start my rotation earlier than they are doing.

What also interests me is the difference in the catch timing of all three. Terry seems to start moving his forward arm down during the recovery, before his opposite hand enters the water, where as Shinji keeps his arm straight ahead until the other arm enters the water. Mandy is somewhere between the two: She spears deeper than Shinji but waits longer than Terry to start moving her hand downward. I think these differences are important because they may reflect differences in shoulder flexibility. If you are on your side with your arm stretched straight out in front of you, it requires significant shoulder flexibility to go into a catch from this position as Shinji does. Terry (I believe) has poorer shoulder flexibility than Shinji, and he accommodates his poorer flexibility by starting to move his forward arm downward so that it is closer to his chest as the other hand enters the water up front. By having his arm further downward, he needs less shoulder flexibility to get a good grip on the water. Mandy has found a compromise between the two, reflecting her own personal shoulder range of motion (I suspect).

I have often maintained that to "swim like Shinji" you need his range of motion, which most of us don't have. My solution to this problem has been to start the rotation earlier so that, by the time the other hand enters the water, I am no longer on my side which makes it easier for me to get a grip on the water without hurting my shoulder, but I need to rethink the solution that Terry seems to be using. Again, by getting his catch hand down close to his chest when he kicks, he saves some stress that might otherwise go into his shoulder joint.

Last edited by Danny : 01-05-2018 at 03:21 AM.
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