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  #61  
Old 08-03-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
today I got back in the water and started playing around with all these different kicking styles. So far, I had two, the 2BK like Coach Mandy does it and the small dolphin kick with the feet together, as well as a continuum of styles in between. Today I discovered a third alternative, which I think ZT has talked about, but I never understood it. I still don't understand it really, but I found myself doing it today, and it was very interesting. Normally the 2BK goes cross body, where the kick on one side rotates and spears on the other side, but today I found myself focusing instead on the upbeat kick, using the pressure on the sole of my foot to initiate rotation. Doing this means that I am using the upbeat on the same side as my stroking arm. I think this can occur more naturally, when you are using a small dolphin kick and separating your feet only slightly. The upbeat is used to rotate back again in the other direction. Still perplexed about the mechanics of this and need to spend more time doing it, before I can understand how it works.

ZT, is this what you were talking about? Can you shed light on this?
I think I have a better sense now for what is going on, so I want to try to explain it to test my understanding. The left leg kicks down to rotate to the right as the right hand is going in up front. This causes the left shoulder to rotate out of the water, which makes a catch with a vertical forearm on the left side easier. But you don't want to stay in that side rotation for the whole arm stroke. Somewhere, about when the left forearm passes the shoulder, you want to start rotating back to the other side. Here is where the upbeat from the down left leg can help you to rotate back. It also has the beneficial side effect of pushing your left hip back down, which can raise your legs. Of course, this back-rotation, or rotating to the left will get an additional boost when you kick downward on the right side, but before that happens, the upbeat on the left side will initiate the rotation. At least that is the way I am seeing it now. Any comments?
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  #62  
Old 08-03-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Dont understand your description.
What arm timing you are using ? catchup or at the edge of front quadrant?
Anyway when the stroking arm is at shoulder height the body is halfway its rotation normally and the same side downkick is happening around that time, while the other arm is in front.
Only upkick I can think of is a mirroraction of the downkick, so when obe leg kicks down, the otehr kicks up.
This gives more power to the rotation and sets up the leg nice and high for the following downkick etc.
This 2 leg kick can be used in TI stroke, but is most often used in a female high turnover stroke style.
Its usually more straight leg style as a 6BK. Its a high rev double (one up, one down) core pumping action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72vWHxvn6c
You can vary the effort you give the upkick. If you dont have an upkick, you keep the one leg TI kick, keeping the other leg static.

Lets say this is the TI version of the above high rev style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icUsOIrXO1Y
Almost straight legs, some form of undulation, and a fairly subtle upkick, but he sets up his (upper)leg behind the front-backplane, ready for the wiplike powerkick. Its close to the non-kick swimming style of the guy with an ankleband.
This is the best looking 2BK style for me. Looks aquatic and legs kept almost completely in the shadow of the body. You can see the same hip falling from one side to the other as in the ankleband swimmer with a slight bodyline angle at the hips after the kick.
The other leg gives a slight bodyline angle in the other direction after the upkick.
You have to keep enough core tone so the hip doesnst sink too far when it falls from the other side. Then you are loosing the connection with the front end and you get all kind of irritating twisting action-reaction stuff.
This happens to me a bit too much on the non breathing side.
You can see when his strokerate is low he starts gliding forward more, but at a slightly higher strokerate he starts to bounce on his buoyancy. When you get into this buoyancy bounce rhythm you need less power to keep going, but have to keep its amplitude low enough so that its not getting so big that it starts to generate excessive drag.
Dont know when that is. Depends on your undulation skill I guess. Just try and see what is fastest for the same effort level.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-03-2016 at 09:07 PM.
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  #63  
Old 08-03-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Dont understand your description.
What arm timing you are using ? catchup or at the edge of front quadrant?
Anyway when the stroking arm is at shoulder height the body is halfway its rotation normally and the same side downkick is happening around that time, while the other arm is in front.
Only upkick I can think of is a mirroraction of the downkick, so when obe leg kicks down, the otehr kicks up.
This gives more power to the rotation and sets up the leg nice and high for the following downkick etc.
This 2 leg kick can be used in TI stroke, but is most often used in a female high turnover stroke style.
Its usually more straight leg style as a 6BK. Its a high rev double (one up, one down) core pumping action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72vWHxvn6c
You can vary the effort you give the upkick. If you dont have an upkick, you keep the one leg TI kick, keeping the other leg static.

Lets say this is the TI version of the above high rev style.
Almost straight legs, some form of undulation, and a fairly subtle upkick, but he sets up his (upper)leg behind the front-backplane, ready for the wiplike powerkick. Its close to the non-kick swimming style of the guy with an ankleband.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icUsOIrXO1Y
This is the best looking 2BK style for me.
ZT, I just started playing with this today, and I'm not completely sure I understand what I was doing, but this is what I believe is happening.

You say above that "Only upkick I can think of is a mirroraction of the downkick, so when obe leg kicks down, the otehr kicks up." I disagree. This sounds like a scissors kick to me. In my case, one leg kicks down, while the other is static. The same leg then kicks up, while the other side is still remaining static. Then the same thing happens on the other side.

But I don't think this is what was happening today, where instead i was using a small dolphin kick to rotate, so let's assume that both feet are kicking together. The downkick was occurring as my arm spears forward and the upkick then occurred shortly thereafter to lift the forward shoulder on the same side so as to allow the arm to go into a catch position. In other words, as I spear forward, that shoulder is going forward and down (although the arm is becoming horizontal), but when I start the catch the same shoulder is going backwards and up. The downkick drives the shoulder forward and down and the upkick gets the same shoulder going backwards and up. Normally I focus on using the downkick to spear forward past my anchor, but today I was also focusing on using the upkick to help initiate my catch.

When I look at the still pictures you show earlier in this thread of the dolphin kick, it appears the swimmer is using a different timing from what I describe above, but that may be because you chose the apex of the downkick and the upkick in your stills, whereas I am talking about when these kicks start, not when they reach their apex.

So that's my understanding right now, but some more time in the water will help me to clarify this in my own mind.
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  #64  
Old 08-03-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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When I look at the still pictures you show earlier in this thread of the dolphin kick, it appears the swimmer is using a different timing from what I describe above, but that may be because you chose the apex of the downkick and the upkick in your stills, whereas I am talking about when these kicks start, not when they reach their apex.
that could be the case.
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