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  #1  
Old 01-16-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Default Need help, so as not to drown....

Hello,

skip this first paragraphs if intersted in facts only. This week I had "one of these days". Out of breath and tensend overall before warm up completed. So I decided to forget my day's plan and swam some single or doubled laps focusing in foundation. Started with weightless head and was struck by realization: The pillow-effect vanished when going to inhale. Thoughts like: Can't call it neither a FS stroke nor a TI-stroke at most struggle / Four years of TI misspent / Have to look for an other sport... And so on... Not very Kaizen like... Back to the facts...

- Head is supported in the "pillow way" when swimming straight without breathing. Backhead feels as if crowning surface, butt too.

- When turning to inhale the pillow effect vanishes. It doesn't feel as if I'm tensing my neck, it still feels rather weightless, but not supported as before.

- If I let the head "fall" into felt support when going to inhale, my mouth wan't reach surface. Drowning seems only way out if trying that for longer...

- When going to inhale whole body might be Total Immersed but shoulder and recovery arm.

Would/could not believe it, because I was convinced my stroke should be a more or less acceptable TI-stroke. (Now I know it's more a less one...) So I went to the small kid's pool and watched what's happened down to very slow motion...

- Backhead and butt are crowning surface as long as all limbs are below surface.

- At the moment I start lifting the recovery arm out of the water all other body parts become Totally Immersed included head and mouth. Was astonished how fast this happens.

- I tried the nodding drills / whale eye / more rotation... All the way mouth below surface...

Then I had a look how I did get O2 in all the last time... Found some inelegant diversions I took (and never realised till now)...

- Head lifting but with lower goggle half to three thirds under water (might be to tell myself breathing stroke is OK?)

- A bopping stroke lifting more or less the whole body more or less parallel to surface. This seems a "hidden" connected force from spearing arm together with kick.

- Connected with an extreme knee kick a heads jump to surface and falling back.

- Spearing more up than parallel or down and sacryfice putting brakes on for air.

- Any combination of the preceding four points. Left and right are a little different.

There may be some more faults I still didn't notice... Swam two times more with my old program. Only FPs "running depth" and "pillow head". Lost one/two strokes in average (LCM) and realised it will become a more wished feeling when swimming faster (this meens for me less than 1:50min/100m LCM) but I can't hold this pace for more than 100m. Inhaling before recovery arm breaks surface helps a little but the time window is too small for longer...

Every thaughts or hints are very welcome... except "dumbass, forget swimming"...

Thanks for reading and best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 01-16-2016 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Small supplement
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  #2  
Old 01-16-2016
tomoy tomoy is offline
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I think my experience is similar. When I turn to breathe, there is a whole core flex thing that has to happen to both keep my body from falling out of vessel shape, and to rotate and yes I'll say it, lift my mouth to water. But quickly, it's not an eyes, forehead lift of the top of the head.

Everytime I try to just roll to air, I end up doing the breathing nodding drill. I'm easily an inch below the water and 2" for my mouth. So instead of lifting the head. I end up flexing my whole chest-shoulder-neck posture to rotate a little more than the rest of me (not the log roll of the whole body) and that puts the whole side upper body closer to air.

Pushoffs are a really clear example too. Push off, streamline, feel the rise to surface. As soon as I break streamline and recover an arm I sink a couple inches.
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  #3  
Old 01-17-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Thoughts like: Can't call it neither a FS stroke nor a TI-stroke at most struggle / Four years of TI misspent / Have to look for an other sport... And so on...
My first thought was that your mind somehow suddenly was transported magically into my brain when I'm in the pool LOL.

Seriously, later, when in the kiddie's pool, what reference source did you use to analyse what was going wrong? You are so specific it sounds like you had a video to see what you had done. Or did you just try to remember what you had done when things went wrong, did the same thing again and tried to analyse in real time. Without a video, I find it very frustrating -- I am forced to make some assumptions, for instance that I am doing it exactly the same way as when I was having trouble, and then, of course, it assumes my awareness by paying full attention to my body parts is actually accurate in body positioning and timing.
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  #4  
Old 01-17-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Do you remember the advice about finding the point of buoyancy on the side of the lungs?

I'm not sure if it's in the book or Easy Freestyle video.

I'd go back to that in Superman Glide. Push off and then rotate to feel that point and try to imprint it.
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  #5  
Old 01-17-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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That was a really bad swim Werner.
Usually going back to basics, slowing it all down , relax and start from your strong points can build confidence again.
The trouble with adult learners is their bad memory. You think you got a technique under your belt and suddenly you have lost it again.
Back to the drawing board for a while.
Next to stiff joints, the mind gets rigid when growing older. Rather repaeat the old wrong ways than taking a step back to try a different path. This can keep you locked in a certain pattern.
Not saying that applies to you especially. Happens to all of us.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-17-2016 at 09:26 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-17-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello,

thank you very much for trying to understand my problem!

@Tomoy,
think, you're very close to my experience/observation. How do you work on improvement? Or do you take it as necessary fact and go on with work on other parts of your stroke?

@Sclim,
thank you very much! Good feeling not being the only one with such a frizzy brain...
I've uploaded a shortened video where I tried to pick the strokes where this problem is best visible. (Some/many others too, but this one moves me most currently...)

@Andy,
thank you. Sorry, I don't remember but will have a look at the DVD. Main felt problem is it seems to be a simple physical fact that the whole body is Immersed when a single arm is out of water. In vertical position fully inhaled surface is just below my mouth, when lifting one arm ahead suface is just above my hairline...

Some SGs are part of every pooltime very first... I'm confident SGs and Skates are not the Problem. Problem starts in the moment when recovery arm is over surface... OK... I was convinced to swim a TI stroke till last week too :-( (Not sure if my short video really shows this...)

@ZT,
thank you. Yes age and rigid mind about the own skewed world view... Back to drawing board would be hard. Not sure if brave enough. But I'm so glad since dealing with TI I learned to feel good over longer FS swimings (let me still call so). This means from 1-?km in slow stroke and slow pace, glad I learned FS for 1500m in less than 30min (TT needed, set to 1.4s and only in SCM) and glad TI made swimming a highly intersting matter for me. And when a gap of more than week is necessary I've to work building up what I call my stamina back again. Really don't want miss all that with a tabula rasa... Although it might be necessary :-(

I very much hope all readers will have a look at my strokes and find some hints to recognized flaws. (ZT lend me your special eagle eye...) and if not solving my recent Problem, so in other parts of my stroke where I should work primarily...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #7  
Old 01-17-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I have to give it a second look-
Main impression is not bad, but damn you are also riding so low in the water.
Dont know how you all breathe so low without disturbing the stroke, and it seems there all goes wrong in the end of the clip in the underwater sideshot.
Shooting up for air at every stroke and sinking down again.
Whole stroke is spiraling downward.
Well, I must recycle the old TI critic again.
Slow strokerate, dense guy, low powerinput, slow 2BK, grinding almost to a halt between strokes and sinking.
Does look hard and not much fun to me.
So do I have another solution then? First reaction for me is that it all could be lighter and quicker, but could that be possible with the same power input?
I can only react from personal experiience since I am not a coach, and I simply have little experience with such immersed swimming.
Maybe Sclim sees things he regognises.

Anyway, there is something wrong with your front to rear connection.
There is an awfull lot of twist and some timelag between kick and upperbody action. You are lloosing power there, but i have to look at it a lot to get an idea what you are actually doing.
Also your recovery is taking a long time. All that time that weight is pressing you down.
Try to get that recovering arm over faster and let it drop in the water at the front where it cant push you down anymore.
Try to connect the start of this faster recovery with your kick and enjoy how the released arm drops in the water like a stone on entry. Dont spend too much energy in trying to avoid splash but only correct the ballistic path of the stone a bit that it enters before shoulders and hand lower than elbow.
Try to overly stiffen you core and lenghten as much as possible for a half a pool length and the release to you normal tone for the other half and see what changes. Connect the ribcage with you hips through the lower back and rotate shoulders and hips together in your stiff mode.
So that are a few things you could try and report back offcourse...


Damn here was text that has gone for some reason.....
drives me crazy to get kicked out and having to log in all the time...
not going to type all that stuff again..

........Bouncing up and down.
..........Make the pulling and kicking smooth and long, not hard and short. This disturbs your line and waists energy.
Arm sometimes collapses down on non breathing side to lift the head.
Bodyline is broken when breathing, but thats almost anavoidable when you are dense and have litle bowwave.
I think you can make breathing easier by having your extended arm pointing straight ahead more when you take a breath to stabilise your bodyline.
When you work toward catch a bit in this position you are also pushing some water down, but only a little, and have a full anchor waiting instead of jerking it down in a hurry and waisting your anchor too.
Keeping that anchor wide will also make lif easier.

an old clip posted way before, thats still usable today.
Nothing wrong with kicking. pulling or flapping, but always keep it moving and flowing continuous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfB2WCDluXE

Your right leg is much more active compared to your left leg and sometimes countering the desired rotation.
Maybe try with one fin on the right or the left leg to just focus on one side at a time.
Or see how it feels with a pull buoy between knees and zero kicking.
In your old footage you sometimes kicked with 2 legs almost at the same time making almost a dolphin kick.
It has improved but there is still asymety.
Seems all has to do with the breathing and the prevention of the legs sinking.
I think it is very hard to keep the legs up if they naturally sink and if you are not that buoyant with a low kickrate adult learner kick technique.
A light 6BK could be a better choice for this kind of swimming for this kind of swimmer.
Something like this guy is doing (although he is perfectly balanced also with a 2BK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-17-2016 at 11:16 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Great to see some video Werner.

I think you have confused roll with reach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6xZ-Lx4uHk

Ignore everything about the vasa trainer but KPN has a great stroke and her underwater footage is a great example or reaching as you rotate.

Compared to yours which looks more like you are pointing the arms down towards the tiles. You don't have the crossover problem she talks about in the video but aim to grab the water further in front of you (still below the head) and hold on to it.

Also you elbow rotation is lovely and high during recovery pointing straight to the ceiling like an elite freestyler but by the time you've speared its facing the bottom of the pool

It might also help to watch ninjaswimmer v15 as he is a guy like us that's getting it right, rather than an elite athlete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfJJi76qAn8

My advice in summary is:-

1. bring the spear depth up and reach forward rather than roll down

2. Work on holding the 'hook' under the water since you already have it over the water (JCB digger arm hinge)
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File Type: jpg werner spear.jpg (14.8 KB, 6 views)
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  #9  
Old 01-17-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Shinji reach from 'the video'
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2016
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,
@Sclim,
thank you very much! Good feeling not being the only one with such a frizzy brain...
I've uploaded a shortened video where I tried to pick the strokes where this problem is best visible. (Some/many others too, but this one moves me most currently...)
It appears to me that you may be spearing a bit too low, causing your body to sink, and that you are compensating by arching your spine and legs. When you start to roll toward your side, your body seems to straighten again and rises so that you are much closer to the surface. The result is that you keep bobbing up and down, and this forces you to struggle to get close enough to the surface to breathe.


Bob
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