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  #1  
Old 08-27-2009
mutian mutian is offline
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mutian
Default How to do a "Hip Drive" exactly?

I tried to start over again by doing core balance and skating with breathing. I started ok face down and when I rotate to face up my legs sink. I tried to contract my lower abs and it seemingly helped. It is even more a struggle to rotate back to face down that I have to kick hard with the lower leg to rotate. I also turned sideways to the side of the higher shoulder during rotation. I think that is probably because I actually use kicking as the power for rotation.

I found skating easier but with similar issues. I watched the DVD and found that TL's legs are also under water doing skating drill but he rotates back and forth without losing balance. I couldn't see how he did it.

For those who can easily do the drills, what is exactly a hip drive? What muscles do you use and how?
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  #2  
Old 08-27-2009
NoImagination NoImagination is offline
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NoImagination
Default My question exactly...

I had the intention of posting a similar question... but I think I will tag onto this thread.

I really would really like a detailed explanation of the mechanics of the hip drive.

The rest of my stroke and swim sequence are fairly relaxed and smooth; however, if I want any power at all I have to pull. I have always had a 15-16 strokes per length in a 25yd pool. Since discovering TI on YouTube I have made adjustments to get my head lower in the water and look down as opposed to forward, my stoke entry is is closer and deeper. My body position was always streamlined and my rotation was fairly decent, but like the other post... my legs dip during breathing forcing me to start my stroke earlier to compensate for the sinking lower half.

Since trying to employ TI techniques... my stroke count averages about 13 due to more active glide... but I am slower than ever before and my endrance seems to have taken a hit.

It seems the key component to the technique is the hip drive...
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  #3  
Old 08-27-2009
atreides atreides is offline
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atreides
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoImagination View Post
I had the intention of posting a similar question... but I think I will tag onto this thread.

I really would really like a detailed explanation of the mechanics of the hip drive.

The rest of my stroke and swim sequence are fairly relaxed and smooth; however, if I want any power at all I have to pull. I have always had a 15-16 strokes per length in a 25yd pool. Since discovering TI on YouTube I have made adjustments to get my head lower in the water and look down as opposed to forward, my stoke entry is is closer and deeper. My body position was always streamlined and my rotation was fairly decent, but like the other post... my legs dip during breathing forcing me to start my stroke earlier to compensate for the sinking lower half.

Since trying to employ TI techniques... my stroke count averages about 13 due to more active glide... but I am slower than ever before and my endrance seems to have taken a hit.

It seems the key component to the technique is the hip drive...
I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer the hip drive question but I can address the endurance issue because I have the same problem. I think that it emanates from the active gliding that you do to decrease SPL. I believe that it results in less oxygen hits than one is used to when they stroke more frequently. I think to be able to maximize the glide phase you must master deeper breathing and learn how to expel all of the CO2 from your lungs when your head is in the water. Ironically when I increased my SR and breathed more regular, I felt better. As a runner, I have begun to breathe deeper and less frequently when I run. This seems to have helped me even when I decrease my SR and I now don't seem to have the problem of latent CO2 when I come up for air.

I think the best analogy I've read on hip drive is its like ice skating. I don't ice skate but when I watch them they are contantly shifting weight from one leg to another. They push and then glide, push and glide, constantly. What they are doing is creating forward momentum by shifting more of their body mass onto one leg and then the other. The question is can you create forward momentem by shifting your body weight from side to the other. If the answer is yes, then what part of the body can most efficiently accomplish these weight shifts. You could move you head from side to side but only the weight of your head would be used. The muscles capable of moving the most weight while you're horizontal are in your lower torso. In truth, you are probably using muscles from your chest to your hips (called your core) to accomplish this weight shift but the initiator of this movement are your hip flexors and lower abdominals. I think thats why its called hip drive. One of the nuances of this movement is that if it correctly coordinated with vertical catch, it virtually eliminates active pulling. As I understand it after one anchors their forearm (goes vertical), hip intiated core drive is supposed to propel the body from that point forward. The way I picture it is its like grabbing hold of a stationary object (the catch) and then flinging your body forward using the stationary object as a lever. I would be interested in anyone elses assessment of this explanation as I am still sorting through it myself. It seems to suggest that body rotation comes after the catch which is not the way that I have timed now.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2009
terry terry is offline
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There are quite a few different questions on this thread, few of them actually relating to hip drive. I'll try to bring some clarity.
If you experience instability while rotating between drill-breathing-position (whether Sweet Spot or less-rotated) and Skating position it may be from being a bit rushed or rough in the rotation. Try to rotate without disturbing the water. See if your body position becomes more stable.

As for hip drive, lately I've been working more on hip nudge.
In viewing UW video of myself I noticed that when my hip drive was more pronounced, my legs spread wider than optimal. So I have tried to make that more subtle. Indeed, it's probably better to acquire the skill and awareness by thinking of it as a rhythmic weight shift. Let the natural mechanics of the stroke interact with the force of gravity. Aim to rotate enough to be "off your stomach" rather than "on your side."

When you want to swim a bit faster, experiment with slightly accentuating the weight shift you already feel occurring. Begin by just nudging the hip lightly at just the right time and feel that nudge drive your extending hand to a "target" that's just a millimeter or two farther forward, and have it arrive there just slightly faster.

Please let us know how this works.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2009
atreides atreides is offline
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atreides
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
There are quite a few different questions on this thread, few of them actually relating to hip drive. I'll try to bring some clarity.
If you experience instability while rotating between drill-breathing-position (whether Sweet Spot or less-rotated) and Skating position it may be from being a bit rushed or rough in the rotation. Try to rotate without disturbing the water. See if your body position becomes more stable.

As for hip drive, lately I've been working more on hip nudge.
In viewing UW video of myself I noticed that when my hip drive was more pronounced, my legs spread wider than optimal. So I have tried to make that more subtle. Indeed, it's probably better to acquire the skill and awareness by thinking of it as a rhythmic weight shift. Let the natural mechanics of the stroke interact with the force of gravity. Aim to rotate enough to be "off your stomach" rather than "on your side."

When you want to swim a bit faster, experiment with slightly accentuating the weight shift you already feel occurring. Begin by just nudging the hip lightly at just the right time and feel that nudge drive your extending hand to a "target" that's just a millimeter or two farther forward, and have it arrive there just slightly faster.

Please let us know how this works.
I guess I'm trying to figure out the timing of the hip "nudge" and the catch. Should you be "nudging" just after the catch or should you have "nudged" , then catch and hold. I'm confused about how much "pulling" I should be doing. Lately I have been able to take quite a bit of the pull out my pull by (I think) better timed hip "nudge". But I'm worried that I still don't have it right. Should I be doing anything "muscular" with my arms after the catch? Or should I catch and hold and let my body forward momentum move my arm to the back ( I might allow for an upper arm push just before exit). My concern is that I'm still working my arms too much as I begin breathing pretty hard as I finish a 50.
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  #6  
Old 08-27-2009
terry terry is offline
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Stay focused on holding rather than pulling. You will still feel a pulling action, but your intention should be to hold your place with the lead hand, applying feather light pressure.
Similarly, your lead hand will probably be moving an instant before your nudge, but your intention is to synchronize. If you focus on nudging past your hand, it should work.
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