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  #21  
Old 05-03-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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If you stroke faster you breath more often!
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2013
Janos Janos is offline
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Charles, of course, you are totally right in everything you have written there. I forgot to mention that a high stroke rate is successful for lots of swimmers over distance too. However, the role of TI or basically hip driven freestyle specifically for distance swimming is a relevant alternative, which I feel, is getting bracketed, deliberately under overgliders in the swim types. It is just something that seems to come across in the narrative of their videos too.

Janos
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2013
Janos Janos is offline
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Rincewind,if you stroke faster..you have to breathe more often! :-))
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Charles, of course, you are totally right in everything you have written there. I forgot to mention that a high stroke rate is successful for lots of swimmers over distance too. However, the role of TI or basically hip driven freestyle specifically for distance swimming is a relevant alternative, which I feel, is getting bracketed, deliberately under overgliders in the swim types. It is just something that seems to come across in the narrative of their videos too.

Janos
Technically, and based on data that's available publicly (I won't start pasting references here), it's actually not entirely correct.

This is one of the roles I like to play. Helping hard liners on both sides understanding little better. They define overgliders as being those who display a wait time of .2 of a second or more, whilst racing or in any attempt to swim fast.

So Yang Sun, Shinji (especially on clips where he swims closer to race pace, and these clips exist), it's all good, all smooth type. Officially, at the very least in my mind, TI promotes a variation of a smooth type stroke, with great insistence on a few key focal points along the stroke that are all aimed at lowering energy cost of swimming, increasing pleasure but also efficiency by both becoming streamlined and by better using body weight and overall action.

Now, I'm also firmly convinced that several self coached swimmers do end up overgliding, in a quasi endless quest to cut strokes and cut strokes, with very little regard to the resulting speed, or even efficiency at any given speed for that matter. This is a sad fact. And this fact has little or nothing to do with TI. A lot a lot of overgliders have never heard about Total Immersion. Even in my own university, there's a strong focus on DPS, which when badly managed can turn into overgliding.

It's useful to better understand to bare in mind that whilst TI is more of a complete swimming system, all strokes being covered and all strokes techniques being perfectly adapted to pool swimming, "their" main play ground remains OW. That alone probably explains and excuse a stronger focus on ensuring minimal rate, and a patience time that won't exceed .2 of a second. It's just fair I think.

Well I'm talking on my behalf here. But I hope that my two friends don't have TI in mind when warning people against the damage overgliding can do to performances, because it's only logical to believe that the hundreds of thousands of swim classes taking place all around the world every day has a significantly bigger impact.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-03-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  #25  
Old 05-04-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
If you stroke faster you breath more often!
Assuming that...you were already breathing every stroke? or were not breathing every stroke?
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  #26  
Old 05-04-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I have trouble with accepting the "gap time" as a valid measure of swim speed or style for many reasons. And I know that Adam does not feel that the criteria should change depending on tempo, but...

The hand moving does not mean propulsion begins...sometimes all it does for awhile is increase drag. this is something that can't be measured with a stop watch. If I'm swimming at 1.2 my stroke simply can't start as quickly as a stroke at .95...it seems like it shoudl be the opposite...that because there is more time I should relatively be able to start my stroke sooner and thus decrease the "gap", but it just doesn't hold up taht way in reality. There are other far more difficult to measure factors contributing to forward speed than simply when the stroke first begins. The slower your speed or tempo the less speed there is to maintain and you're better off to wait longer. The faster your speed the more important it is to maintain momentum before you give it away and therefore the catch should begin sooner.

Problems begin when a low rate stroker simply starts the next stroke sooner without the recovery arm being ready to take it's place (which then increases rate naturally).

So it IS rate dependent and the arbitrary value of .2 or whatever is simply an observation that doesn't help people improve their form...just spend more energy.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 05-04-2013 at 03:42 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-04-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
This is one of the roles I like to play. Helping hard liners on both sides understanding little better. They define overgliders as being those who display a wait time of .2 of a second or more, whilst racing or in any attempt to swim fast.
For me Suzanne, every word above counts, including whilst racing or in any attempt to swim fast.

At sub max (for the whole duration) I tend to let people... swim.
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  #28  
Old 05-04-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
For me Suzanne, every word above counts, including whilst racing or in any attempt to swim fast.

At sub max (for the whole duration) I tend to let people... swim.
I glossed over the racing or swim fast part. but it's all still relative. there is a continuum of learning, a continuum of speed. Speed for one may be a snails pace for another...yet it may be most appropariate and it may be a beautiful stroke, albiet slow. There are components we (ie TI) strive to eliminate in a slow stroke rate "racing stroke" such as any pauses in the recovering arm at the hip and a number of other technical improvements. While i understand the motive of pointing out the flaws in a slow stroke rate extended gliding time stroke, if the swimmer is on a path to improvment over time then let's not call it over or under anything implying error..let's call it ongoing improvement.

I will have to think longer about how or if I can quantify a 'border line' between a stroke that's too patient and one that's not patient enough. You and I both agree that this must be tied to body rotaiton, but instinctively something about the .2 just doesn't sit well with me and perhaps i'm not able to explain it.
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #29  
Old 05-04-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I glossed over the racing or swim fast part. but it's all still relative. there is a continuum of learning, a continuum of speed. Speed for one may be a snails pace for another...
How can I blame you, I write too much.

I really meant 'race' or 'fast' for this particular individual, with no regard for comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
. While i understand the motive of pointing out the flaws in a slow stroke rate extended gliding time stroke, if the swimmer is on a path to improvment over time then let's not call it over or under anything implying error..let's call it ongoing improvement.
I've said it, but I am please to repeat it, I see no problem in overgliding at training, if it serves a purpose.

So I define real overgliders as being people that can not swim otherwise, but would wish to swim faster. Both elements are important. Can't do otherwise, wish to swim faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
but instinctively something about the .2 just doesn't sit well with me and perhaps i'm not able to explain it.
Logically, we could venture stating that .2 fits TT=1.0. At that rate, there's a stroke every 2 seconds. 2/10 = .2

As far as I'm concerned, and here I reckon that this view is not TI kosher, I teach no wait time at all. Even at 1.5, I'd expect the hand to move down ever so slightly, with no wait..

Best example would be this clip there. As usual, I'm out of shape on this clip. It was recorded in 2011, I hadn't swam since 2010. But it gives you an idea. At 1.3, the hand moves very very slowly into catch position, but it does move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmM0LIuWa8

But that's me. Spear/wait works equally well I guess.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-04-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2013
machelett machelett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
You and I both agree that this must be tied to body rotaiton, but instinctively something about the .2 just doesn't sit well with me and perhaps i'm not able to explain it.
If I remember correctly from reading the TI book front to back a few years ago, proper swimming is opposed to what instinct tells you. For example, instinctively lifting the head to breathe is--well what is the politically correct way of phrasing it nowadays--an opportunity for improvement.

So if in this case your instinct tells you something is wrong with the metric, maybe that's an opportunity to rethink if instinct is a good judge when it comes to swimming. ;)
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