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  #1  
Old 08-08-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Ron Bear
Default Catch timing experiment

For years, I have been using TI catch timing (TI) because:
1) I learned to swim using the TI method.
2) I knew that professionals are very flexible and I assumed I lacked the flexibility to pull off professional catch timing (P).

After reading about P on this forum (Thanks Zenturtle!), I decided to give it a go. I am sure there are subtleties of both P and TI that I have yet to master, but the essential quality is that P is catch and then roll while TI is roll and then catch. Anecdotally I had seemed to notice that P was faster for me at the beginning of my practice while I was still fresh, but at some point late in the workout I was better off switching to TI. I wanted to do an experiment to really nail this down.

The Experiment:
1) Ten fifties at the end of the workout alternating TI and P.
2) All with tempo trainer set to 1.3.
3) I did this experiment four times on consecutive work days; Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Monday
Experimental Limitations:
1) I didn’t write anything down, just observed while still fresh in memory
2) My watch has hundredths, but my old eyes just couldn’t make them out in the dim indoor pool, so I only observed times to the nearest second.

Results:
1) P was consistently faster than TI. You might say “Duh!”, but the question wasn’t “Should professionals be using TI timing?” The question was “Can I benefit from professional timing?”
2) Most P laps were sandwiched between two TI laps that were one or two seconds slower, and most TI laps were sandwiched between two P laps that were one or two faster. Occasionally I caught myself doing a single TI catch on a P lap or vice versa and I just threw those laps out. But I can still make this very strong statement: Every single P lap was adjacent to a TI lap that was one or two seconds slower than the P lap had been.
3) Every single day I sped up as I went. TI started at 52 seconds on the first day and 50 seconds every other day and ended at 48 seconds every day. P started at 50 on the first day and 49 every other day and ended at 47 on the first two days and 46 on the last two days.
4) The first day, I noticed that my TI laps (years of practice) were very smooth and my P laps (fairly new skill for me) were somewhat ragged. After a single practice (actually during that single practice) both strokes felt smooth for the next three days.

Conclusion:
1) P works for me now and I will make that my focus. I don’t believe I can generalize that result to everyone else, but I have achieved a level of skill or flexibility or something that means I will now start to abandon TI catch timing.
2) TI catch timing will now act as a drill for me. Note that I got faster when tired where I usually get slower. I think the reason that happened is that I always had some small portion of my mind thinking about the catch. But even if the thought is wrong, the fact is still valid and I will continue to mix in TI timing as long as it has a positive effect on my P laps.
3) Altering TI and P seemed to work magic for me that neither does in isolation. I would be thrilled if some of you on the forum tried it and found that it worked magic for you.

Ron Bear
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  #2  
Old 08-08-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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you dont happen to have underwater footage of your 2 different timings?
The most important thing is that the rest of the body is connected to the anchoring arm.
It can feel rotate/catch for you, or catch/rotate without showing much difference for an outside observer.
For one swimmer the difference is rather subtle, for others it maybe is clearly visable.

Did you feel a difference in the timeline of forward propulsion?
If you draw with a paintbrush a line on the paper and the with of the line is a mark for the forward propulsion you are feeling, is there a difference in this line between the 2 approaches?
For me, its best when the line on the paper never stops. The line gets thinner and thinner before the actual catch happens, but the point of the brush never totally leaves the paper, is pushed into the paper harder from the start of the catch where the line gets thicker, then it thins out again etc etc.

Did you feel a difference in the load of the triceps?
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  #3  
Old 08-09-2016
haradoo
 
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Excuse my ignorance - what's P?
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  #4  
Old 08-09-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Haradoo,
I was using P to stand for "Professional catch timing" so that I wouldn't have to type Professional catch timing over and over. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Zenturtle,
No video, sorry. It feels to me like the brush makes a fatter splat right after catch with P timing than with TI. I have read that the P timing makes less of a dead spot and therefore more of the continuous thin line you describe, but that is not what I feel. I feel that having already formed the catch prior to spearing, I can really fall forward against the traction of the well planted catch.
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  #5  
Old 08-09-2016
fooboo fooboo is offline
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You are right. P is faster. What it takes?
Forearm is in not so funny angle down. Catch uses arm and
shoulder. TI has no shulder problem and uses upper arm,
shoulder, thorax and butt muscles. Why is it slower? Well...
I swim slower since I do it more relaxed. I spend my time
thinking and observing around the bottom of the lake/pool.
No fish. P asks you to be rude. To work. To stop thinking.
I stopped P since I had shoulder problem. TI solved it. Faster?
So far, yes. But, if I strugle, who knows.
Best regards.
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  #6  
Old 08-09-2016
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Fooboo,
I hadn't realized that part of the reason for TI timing is to avoid shoulder problems. Good thing to keep in my hip pocket if I start having problems.
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  #7  
Old 08-13-2016
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
You are right. P is faster. What it takes?
Why is it slower? Well...
I swim slower since I do it more relaxed. I spend my time
thinking and observing around the bottom of the lake/pool.
No fish. P asks you to be rude. To work. To stop thinking.
I stopped P since I had shoulder problem. TI solved it. Faster?
So far, yes. But, if I strugle, who knows.
Best regards.
You say you swim slower than P. What is your tempo? Do you know? Most P's when they are swimming and what you are viewing on youtube is at racing speed and their tempos can vary from anywhere in the .6 to .7 range and in Sun Yang's case in the 1500, .95. So what you perceive as a windmill to what your are doing is mostly the faster tempo which makes everything in mechanics appear something it is not. If you were able to slow motion their videos you would see a patient lead arm driving into the catch as the recovery fingers are entering the water.

Your other quote about the straight arm recovery being faster is not true (1% may be true) but straight arm recovery or windmill arms was disproven as faster in the 60s or 70s by Gambrel I think.

My video that Suzanne provided a link to was at a 1.20 tempo and that is slow for me. I am usually swimming anywhere from .90 to 1.02 and even at 1.02 I still have more of a patient lead arm than at .90 but even at .90 it is still there.

Trying to implement what you see Ps doing at their race pace at your much slower pace you will have a different feel for the water.

Make sure when you analyze Ps you are understanding that everything they are doing is happening at a much faster rate than what you are swimming at.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2016
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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Hi Ron Bear I'd be really interested to see your execution of TI catch timing as I am thinking you my be overgliding with a dead spot which is definitely not something we advocate.

If you can post a video it would help a lot.

Best regards

James

Last edited by CoachJamesEwart : 08-12-2016 at 03:31 AM.
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  #9  
Old 08-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
With P one swims using arms. Till has energy. IT uses whole body
From my experience, its the opposite if you are really using a delayed catch according TI dryland or underwater drills.
Bodyroll and shoving forward over anchored arm dont go together anymore with delayed catch timing, so you use less whole body power in your stroke.

BUt as said before, without footage of actual swimmers its hard discuss whats late or whats early.
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  #10  
Old 08-11-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Ron,

sorry, late in. I don't understand two points in your starting post:

- One of the points TI is critizised sometimes is the too early (deep spear/catch) already set up the spear. Now you write body roll has to be initiated before catch has to start. (I see most TI-swimmers -at least Suzanne-Tracey-Mat-Terry-Shinji) set up the catch (touched the bumper) when they initiate their rotation while recovery hand enters the water to start the spear.

- If you swim TI and P with the same SR you'll find what is faster by counting your strokes plus last quarter strokes. It's not necessary to stop with your wrist watch...

If time, please lead me on to your track.

Best regards,
Werner
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