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  #31  
Old 05-25-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Wow, my bad it feels good to be understood :)

You're spot on. Your girl displays a stroke which, hand entry/catch wise is opposite to Phelps.

I bet she doesn't achieve this sort of stretch under water:



This is the stretch I was referring too earlier. This is what makes Phelps like fly swimming next to impossible, without being under high level coaching supervision. Looks nice on a picture, but feels awful for your shoulders.

On the other end of the spectrum, your female model by entering hands first probably let the hands go down on catch *before* upper body. The stroke is thus easier to manage, from an overall training perspective.

One last thing. You probably notice that your female model is splashing more than Phelps on entry, she's probably 6 in shorter and 60pounds lighter (at least). That says a lot.
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  #32  
Old 05-27-2013
scr scr is offline
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Phelps is exceptional and his strokes are good for theoretical study. Every time I see his big 'S' butterfly photo, my right shoulder feels uncomfortable again :(

Quote:
On the other end of the spectrum, your female model by entering hands first probably let the hands go down on catch *before* upper body. The stroke is thus easier to manage, from an overall training perspective.
Hersey does perform a undulation. See 03:51-03:54 seconds lane 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUq42uGtnw
As she is a member of USA swimming national team, I would expect that she adapts Phelps style of entry. It is interesting to know why she does it.

John

Last edited by scr : 05-29-2013 at 04:48 AM.
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  #33  
Old 05-28-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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I dislike this clip, just like I dislike any demonstration of some fly breathing every 2 over the 200m distance. This to me still indicates that several coaches are yet to understand this stroke.

Hard statements I know. But after seeing our Canadian flyer (200m) doing this in London 2012, I really have a big thing against that really.

Men seem to understand the fly stroke much better. Female possibly lack a polar star somewhere in the sky to follow.

The task should be to teach the fly stroke in a way to aim at great speed and ease breathing every stroke. Over 200m, you just *don't* need the added speed that not breathing provides, in theory.

I mention in theory, as these cycles non breathing with a head that is kept way too low do potentially come in the way of body undulation. Look very closely at these cycles. You'll notice that the head not only remains too low, but it does give a little downward tilt which seem to interfere with forward momentum.

I believe that when swimming fast fly, not breathing, your head should still perform an upward tilt, as it is important as a component to achieve optimal distance per stroke. The only thing though, is that once you master this aspect very well, your difference between 25m flat out no breathing and 25m flat out breathing ever cycle becomes so tiny, that it explains why top 2 males over 100m fly in london were breathing every stroke at the shortest fly event available. The 3rd one was sometimes breathing every 2, but with no downward tilt of the head whatsoever.

This is where we're at, females seem to drag behind.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-28-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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  #34  
Old 05-30-2013
scr scr is offline
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When I learned fly, I breathed every cycle because I need air to survive. Then I breathed every 2 cycles and used the non-breathing cycle to adjust body position back to normal. Later I breathed 2 cycles + 1 non-breathing cycle, just showed I am different :) Now I breathe every cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The task should be to teach the fly stroke in a way to aim at great speed and ease breathing every stroke.
Absolutly! I would like to put an emphasis on the word 'ease'. Then we can play around with the other components of fly.

I agree with you the head shall perform an upward tilt in every cycle. As the body travel forward in a 'S' shape path, the head must be adjusted to smooth the body undulation especially for the body upward path. My head tilts up a small angle, say my eyes look at 3 feet ahead of freestyle position. I amaze that it sends a signal to the body forming a wide 'U' shape for the 2nd kick. If my head tilts downward in the body upward path, it will dampen the effect of 2nd kick.

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Try to look up through the hole that your body will open when surfacing, before surfacing. In other words, before surfacing your upper body is submerged in the water right? When you surface, your body creates a hole in the water, a hole through which it will slide out to surface and breathe.
If I do it, the incline angle of body to the water surface is too large and it affects the recovery. I notice that an optimal angle can give me a relax recovery and entry. I try to get the benefits of recovery and entry as we do in freestyle.

John
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  #35  
Old 05-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr View Post
If my head tilts downward in the body upward path, it will dampen the effect of 2nd kick.
Voilā, it's so simple. And this effect can be seen too (among elites).

Second kick / final push gets you to fly (literally) during this critical phase where your arms are recovering. Any tilt down of the head (like we often see) shortens the *fly over* phase.
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  #36  
Old 01-19-2017
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr View Post
Phelps is exceptional and his strokes are good for theoretical study. Every time I see his big 'S' butterfly photo, my right shoulder feels uncomfortable again :(



Hersey does perform a undulation. See 03:51-03:54 seconds lane 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUq42uGtnw
As she is a member of USA swimming national team, I would expect that she adapts Phelps style of entry. It is interesting to know why she does it.

John
Interestingly ā 4:51 we see that the "girl" (not sure which country, the one that touches the wall ā5:02) only kick once as the arms enter the water then she stay flat till the next cycle.
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