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  #21  
Old 07-09-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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You can see Phelps doing the drill I mentioned right at the beginning of this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1GqvpN9wUI
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  #22  
Old 07-18-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
This is something I am not clear on. I work at entering my arms softly but am told there is still some splashing. I dont know if it is possible to enter in a spearing fashion. To do so one would have to have the body in quite an above water position which would take alot of energy.
Thoughts?
Good question. The principles that apply to freestyle in term of arm/hand entry are kind of reversed for butterfly.

That is, instead of entering fingers first, followed by forearm, followed by upper arm and then the shoulder itself, you must aim at entering the shoulder first, followed by the upper arm, followed by the forearm and then the hands.

Micheal Phelps taught this to anyone who would like to reduce the level of splash upon arm entry.

See this now famous clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0

Disclaimer: I tried to do just that in 2010, investing a fair amount of time at it, let me tell you that it's easier said than done. Phelps, this giant and much more powerful swimmer (than I) still splashes far less than I would do, despite the fact that I'm much much slower than him.
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2012
Danny Danny is offline
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Needer,

When I looked at your video, it looked to me like you were kicking too early when your hands come out of the water. You can tell if this is the case by checking to see if your feet are out of the water when you kick. Try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick. When you do this, it should postpone the kick so that it happens closer to when your hands come out. If you kick when your hands come out, it will raise your body and make your recovery easier. If you kick too early, your hands will pull down your body as they come out and make your recovery more difficult.

I'm working on this same issue myself.
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  #24  
Old 08-25-2012
Carlos8100 Carlos8100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Needer,

When I looked at your video, it looked to me like you were kicking too early when your hands come out of the water. You can tell if this is the case by checking to see if your feet are out of the water when you kick. Try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick. When you do this, it should postpone the kick so that it happens closer to when your hands come out. If you kick when your hands come out, it will raise your body and make your recovery easier. If you kick too early, your hands will pull down your body as they come out and make your recovery more difficult.

I'm working on this same issue myself.
I'm totally agree with you.You'r 100% good here that try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick.
If you conquer too beginning, your arms will take down your body system as they come out and make your restoration more challenging.
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  #25  
Old 11-16-2012
BrentonFord BrentonFord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tab View Post
I am about to attempt a move into butterfly. My understanding is that butterfly came about from breast stroke. And so, I want to transcend into fly from the breast stroke. I can easily replace the frog kick with a dolphin kick but what I don't see is where the two kicks in fly work into the mix? Am I right one kick is stronger and one weaker. I have been told it is a rhythmic stoke, I am looking for the rhythm.
One kick is typically stronger than the other. Drills are the best way to find your rythm. They gradually help you build up your stroke and get a feel for timing. It's difficult to go straight into butterfly swimming if you are new to it. I wouldn't focus too much on looking at the commonalities between fly and breast. This won't be of much help.
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2013
scr scr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Micheal Phelps taught this to anyone who would like to reduce the level of splash upon arm entry.

See this now famous clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0
For a master swimmer without the degree of shoulder flexibility like Micheal Phelps, what options can he have to reduce the splash upon arm entry and the drag before the 1st kick?

John
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  #27  
Old 05-21-2013
BP BP is offline
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Just a couple of questions regarding the butterfly stroke:

i) Whilst the arms recover - palms down - how close should they be (and the hands) from the water's surface?

ii) What is meant exactly by the 'keyhole' shape? Is there a definite 'out and in' movement by the hands/arms to create this shape, or does this naturally happen as your body pushes down through the water? (Sorry if this question isn't that clear; I hope you know what I mean).

Many thanks in advance.

BP
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  #28  
Old 05-21-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi BP

The keyhole and hourglass shapes are both regarded by many nowadays as outmoded, but if you are more interested in gentle distance-oriented butterfly they may still be interesting and amusing to investigate.

I may say that for me at the moment 100 meters would come into the distance category, but hope springs eternal.

Almost any general book on swimming will provide a description of the keyhole and hourglass pulls. Basically each arm traces something quite similar to the now also outmoded s-pull in freestyle, that is to say the hands first move outward (slide to the corners) and then the hands point down and sweep in under the body and exit near the hips.

Nowadays the fashion seems to be more of a straight back pull with vertical forearm, although no doubt viewed from underneath there is a slight curve.

More skilled butterfliers may comment.
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  #29  
Old 05-24-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr View Post
For a master swimmer without the degree of shoulder flexibility like Micheal Phelps, what options can he have to reduce the splash upon arm entry and the drag before the 1st kick?

John
Swimming like Phelps without the shoulder flexibility is next to impossible. And even with shoulder flexibility, embracing some of his stroke characteristics is not only very hard, it's very risky.

However the process allows you to better understand how great he/his coach have been. Unless I want to do well over the 200 some day (and I doubt it ever happens due to lack of time to train for this distance), I am not sure I will try to mimic Phelps as hard as I tried in 2010.

His stroke really gets hard to mimic by arm entry. Look very closely. You'll notice that he enters shoulders/upper arm/forearm/hands last. Not only that. What's very very fascinating, is that his arm recovery goes 100miles per hour after exit (like it's case for all fly swimmers) but by arm entry, arm have no longer any autonomous velocity. You can not guess just by looking. You have to try.

What creates some splash is that you have your momentum gained during arm recovery, that's for one, and also you want to start pulling on arm entry. The combination of these 2 things creates splashes.

Phelps literally stops any momentum as soon as arms are at the width they will enter. That I could never do it at full speed. I came close, but by doing so, component number 2 listed above stops working. I lack pulling power and loose speed (not a feeling, it's tested for 12 straight monts dammit).

He stops momentum, and just let the whole upper body fall to create the downhill effect. And that mutan doesn't stop there.

His whole upper body sinks but the darn hands stay right at the surface. Shoulders is the buffer having to absorb that stress. Huge upper body falling deep, pushed by the whole body undulation, and hands stay at the surface.

When hands enter, body has entered a while ago (remember, it's head first then upper body then shoulder then elbows then hands, so by the time hands enter, upper body is already low). But it continues going even deeper whilst hands stay there. This creates a spring effect. But outch. Shoulders!!!!

Now to try and answer your question. As soon as hands touch the water, they *must* have stopped their inward route. Recovery brings both hands to be very wide and far apart. They will enter closer to each other. You have to bring them together. You want to do this airborne. As soon as they touch water, if you continue bringing them inward, that creates huge splashes. Ideally, you want them shoulder width. This could splash less.

The thing I used to work on to eliminate splash, simple, is full stroke trying to splash as little as possible. I'd be able to hold about 50sec/50m like that, but would fail as soon as I would accelerate the pace. Here you see me on 2 diff clips, 2 diff pace. One very easy, the other moderate. And I'm trying to enter wider than usual (as I would usually enter with hands almost touching together). I'm trying to stop this momentum and simple let myself fall, head/upper body/shoulder/elbow/hands last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ehug9w8cPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1451WIsOJs

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-24-2013 at 02:11 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2013
scr scr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Swimming like Phelps without the shoulder flexibility is next to impossible. And even with shoulder flexibility, embracing some of his stroke characteristics is not only very hard, it's very risky.
Thank you for your detail explanation. I wish I had this advice a few years ago, so I could avoid the shoulder injury twice. I accelerated the arms swing during recovery and hoped to stop like Phelps. Unfortunately my shoulder does not have his strength and flexibility.

Next I mimic Kathleen Hersey's entry which is opposite to Phelps, ie. hand first, shoulder follow. See time 0:50-0:55 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z464kjZfsas

Quote:
The thing I used to work on to eliminate splash, simple, is full stroke trying to splash as little as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ehug9w8cPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1451WIsOJs
You are a quiet butterflyer!

I have been working on to reduce splash with smooth entry for some time. Inspired by the gliding butterfly some time ago, I am studying the full stroke part by part such as
- stroke with arms only
- stroke with arms plus 1st kick etc.

John
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