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Old 06-18-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Default Evf

I've been searching for a stroke thought that will unlock the door to the rarefied domain of the high-elbow catchers.

I've just had an idea after watching a few videos that I will try tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd be interested to know whether anyone has tried this:

Once you have speared to full extension, picture the elbow of the lead arm staying outside the body as the catch and pull-through is executed.

Too simple? Plain wrong? Priceless insight?
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Old 06-18-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I've been searching for a stroke thought that will unlock the door to the rarefied domain of the high-elbow catchers.

Once you have speared to full extension, picture the elbow of the lead arm staying outside the body as the catch and pull-through is executed.

Too simple? Plain wrong? Priceless insight?
Why not? Opening the axilla (armpit), skatch ... whatever visualization works for you.
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Old 06-18-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Why not? Because the others don't work for me.
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Old 06-18-2011
Scotty Scotty is offline
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Lawrence:

That's an interesting visual cue, but my pull is well outside my body, and I still am not getting the angle of the elbow correct. Initiating and continuing the pull with the lat seems to be a better focal point for me, but clearly not effective enough.

You bring up an interesting point. Is it possible for "S-stroke" swimmers to have an elevated elbow as they sweep their hand inward on the pull?
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Old 06-19-2011
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CoachDave CoachDave is offline
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Default Evf

I like to think of my EVF as a 300-level course. If you don't have the prerequisites completed, it's not possible. If you depend on the lead arm to initiate rotation with anything besides the initial hinging action, the opportunity will not present itself because it's outside the range of motion of the shoulder, unless you hinge early, which would have the arm bend across the middle if the elbow is kept to the outside.

If there's another source for rotation, the arm won't need to leave early and the possibility of having a strategy for its movement is there. This delay means that the hinging motion, starting later in the rotation, will anchor directly on the wide track (although the wide track will naturally change outside the swimmer's perspective thanks to rotation, something that Counsilman accounted for long after the "s" stroke article). Many people do the right elbow motion for EVF, but because they have rushed into a focus on power without getting approximate front quadrant timing, the body's early rotation stops them from doing EVF.

This is why it's so important for swimmers to make sure their kick is synched with the rotation and the tracks are wide, allowing for a shift of weight to be their primary source for rotation.
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Old 06-19-2011
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
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Lawrence-

From full "extension" with my fingers pointing at the far wall, I first point my fingers straight down at the bottom of the pool. My hand, wrist and forearm follow, so that all are pointing down while my upper arm is still above my head.

I am very anatomy oriented, so I think about simultaneous elbow flexion and shoulder internal rotation -- as the catch phase.

Then, simultaneous scapula and shoulder adduction as the pull phase.

KPN told me:
1. spin -- "spinning" the shoulder from forearm forward to forearm vertical
2. Then, pull.

Hope one of these helps.
RadSwim

Last edited by RadSwim : 06-19-2011 at 02:41 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Well, I tried it. It certainly got me nearer a high elbow but it wasn't pleasant. Even if it's possible for me to learn a classical EVF (which I doubt) I don't think I'll be pursuing it. It removed all relaxation from my stroke. Perhaps the value of EVF depends on whether you're swimming for speed or pleasure, although I allow there may be some who can swim pleasurably with a full-on EVF. I don't think that's me, though.
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Old 06-19-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Perhaps the value of EVF depends on whether you're swimming for speed or pleasure, although I allow there may be some who can swim pleasurably with a full-on EVF
Perhaps. TI doesn't emphasize EVF, as you know.
Any reasonable and comfortable elevation of the elbow above the forearm and hand during the pull should aid propulsion, as contrasted with dropping the elbow.
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Old 06-19-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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I can swim with little felt effort at a low stroke count, so something in my non-EVF catch must be propelling me.
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Old 06-19-2011
Ghul Ghul is offline
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I think Coach Dave has it with the timing. Unless you can get the timing right
EVF won't happen (unless unusual anatomy!). I know that when I fail to be patient my arm hinges too early and my arm sweeps across the midline.

I think that for the average swimmer improving balance and streamlining is much easier and has much greater payoff than working on EVF. For advanced swimmers it is important but most of us (including me!) probably think we are more advanced than we really are.
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