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  #1  
Old 06-21-2011
yann yann is offline
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yann
Default Evf and shoulder impingement

Hi all,

Not willing to hijack Lawrence's tread about evf, I'll start this new one. As quick summary I say that I started to improve my catch recently by improving my catch, but for the first time I felt discomfort in my shoulder at about the same time. Practicing TI to get heathier, I don't want to sacrifice my shoulder's health for my global health.

The starting question is the following: can it be safe in the long run to do evf? I suggest the follwing reading (from a very good yoga website):
http://www.dailybandha.com/2011/04/s...s-in-yoga.html

As shown here, rotating the humerus internaly (like we do during the evf) can impinge the subacromial bursa:


Any experience of long evf without shoulder pain or discomfort ?
Any advice to solve the evf with the additional constraint of not hurting ourself ?
Any orthopedist-swimmer in here ? :-)

Yann
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2011
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
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Pain-free EVF.
1. Make sure your scapular stabilizers and rotator cuffs are ready. See http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDe...spx?TabId=1551. Program designed by swimming orthopedist and therapists.
2. The catch phase, where most of the shoulder internal rotation occurs, should be a low-power activity. The catch puts your forearm in postion to apply power in the pull phase. You should not be using much muscle power to catch. If your catch feels "hard" or "powerful" it is too much. If it hurts, it is wrong.
3. With my more problematic left shoulder, I drill:
1 - stabilize left scapula -- pulling the medial border of my scapula toward my spine using mid and lower trapzeius muscles
2 - gently catch -- fingers down and elbow up
3 - steadily pull -- moderate pressure against forearm and hand.

RadSwim

Last edited by RadSwim : 06-24-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2011
yann yann is offline
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Thank you very much RadSwim. I tried the usaswimming's sequence this morning. I must say in the end I felt my shoulders tired in a different way than in swimming. So it must be good and very complementary. I'm going to do it regularly.

I couldn't much agree about the fact the catch be a low-power activity, thank you to have pointed that to me. I'll use it as a focal point next week.

About your last step "steadily pull". Could you tell me if it means you increase progressively the pressure (from the beginning to the end of the pull) or if it means you keep it moderate and constant ?

If interested I posted a video of my catch in this thread: http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=2429. Any comment appreciated.

Yann
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  #4  
Old 06-26-2011
CoachFlppr CoachFlppr is offline
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To avoid pain and injury to the shoulder during the high-elbow evf maneuver, your body needs to be rotating toward the catch arm during catch and pull. Try this: stand up and do the skatch trick with your body rotated away from the shoulder, in the typical skate position. Now do it with your body rotated more toward the shoulder. Feel the difference?

When the body is rotating toward the catch arm, the greater tubercle (with attached rotator cuff tendons) of the humerus does not slam into the acromion and coracoacromial arch (impingement).

With the evf technique, this means you need to be more patient with your lead arm before you begin your catch and pull if you want to avoid pain and injury.
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2011
yann yann is offline
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Thank you CoachfFlppr.

Quote:
Try this: stand up and do the skatch trick with your body rotated away from the shoulder, in the typical skate position. Now do it with your body rotated more toward the shoulder. Feel the difference?
Yes I can feel the difference. But this is invalidating the way I thought evf should be executed. Initially I thought the sequence should be
  1. From skating go to skatch
  2. When you have a good catch initiate the kick + core rotation + pull from the lat
But to avoid injury, you suggest the body rotation should start during the skating to skatch transition. Did I get you right?

Then should the kick be initiated when I have the firm grip? Or also when the core rotation occurs?

Quote:
When the body is rotating toward the catch arm, the greater tubercle (with attached rotator cuff tendons) of the humerus does not slam into the acromion and coracoacromial arch (impingement).
Very detailed injury sequence description! You seem to have well studied the shoulder's anatomy !

Yann

Last edited by yann : 06-26-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2011
CoachFlppr CoachFlppr is offline
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Rotation begins as the recovery arm begins to descend from its highest point. Try it yourself. Raise one arm up to lead arm position, and the other arm to recovery position, then slowly begin to spear with your recovery arm. Do you feel the rotation begin in your core? That would be the best time to initiate the evf catch if you want to protect your shoulder, when you feel that core rotation begin. Kick whenever you like, but wait to feel the core rotation before beginning your catch.
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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One other thing to consider is potentially you are using your shoulder muscles too much and with too much effort/tension/strain to rotate your elbow around to the up position. I tend to focus on a gentle elbow rotation than some movement with the shoulder to rotate my elbow up. If you are wiping out your shoulder muscles by flexing them constantly with lots of tension, then they will eventually stay contracted and will exacerbate the inpingement.

So low power, with focus on the least amount of effort to get my elbow around, and focus on the elbow itself rather than using the shoulder to get my elbow rotated. Yes, the shoulder does need to move, but I do not overflex the shoulder in that effort.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2011
yann yann is offline
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@CoachFlppr
Thank you for the additional advice on timing. I'll try this on Monday.

@dshen
I must say I haven't focus on my recovery for a while. It was also noticed by Lawrence in my stroke video that my arm entry was forearm driven instead of elbow driven. A more general problem on my recovery might be it is too much shoulder driven. Could you see such thing in my stroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNkHVkyLVo ?

Thanks

Yann
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  #9  
Old 06-27-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yann View Post
@dshen
I must say I haven't focus on my recovery for a while. It was also noticed by Lawrence in my stroke video that my arm entry was forearm driven instead of elbow driven. A more general problem on my recovery might be it is too much shoulder driven. Could you see such thing in my stroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQNkHVkyLVo ?
Yann
first, you look pretty good in general! a few comments:

1. at around 2:37, we see a front view. it seems that you are spearing very straight out front and occasionally i see your right arm spearing just a bit too inside in front of your nose. i think you should try spearing wider on both sides, and try to spear to the same wide point on each side.

i believe wider tracks should help eliminate shoulder problems.

2. i do not see you turning your elbow for EVF. at about 2:12, we see a side view but it seems at least your right elbow is still to the side. this causes a bit of elbow dropping as your arm strokes back.

3. your shoulders seem very stiff though. you might try relaxing that some more. that is perhaps part of what Lawrence sees; you are driving the spear action with more your arm and shoulders while it should be driven more by your hip. this may be also causing your shoulder muscles to tighten up and make your inpingement problem worse.

so as you bring your arm around through recovery, relax your shoulders, gently drop your arm into the water with your hip turning to "push" your arm into the water and then you gently guide it forward to spear. then, as terry says, flick the appropriate foot in 2BK to send your spear on its way.

you can try practicing this by launching into superman glide, and then pull back one side into skate position. then the hand that pulls back is drawn forward through recovery and then you practice using your hip to drop your arm into the water and into spear. practice one side, and then stop and stand up. keep doing this all the way down the pool on one side only with focus, stopping after one stroke/spear and focusing on this hip aspect.

repeat this with the other side.

then when you think you've got it a little, then add one more stroke to try doing this with 2 strokes before standing up. then 3, then 4 etc.

if you feel like you're still tight in the shoulders, then when you stop and stand, shake your shoulders out a little and attempt to relax them before going into your next try.

4. another small detail: your hips are drooping in the water. this is cutting your glide during recovery by a great deal. i think you should try spearing a little deeper until you master your balance in the water. the deeper spear will help get your hips higher in the water. so spear a little wider and a little deeper.

as you practice the drill in 3, you can measure the effect of the depth of your spear and also the connection between your hip and spear by watching the tiles go by under you in the pool. when the tiles go by faster and for longer, you've got a great glide which means great streamline, and body driven propulsion.

one last thought - you may want to not think about EVF for now until your spear, stiff shoulders, and body streamline are worked on a bit more. adding more focal points or things to worry about is tough! but once you get all the other things improved, then EVF can be a nice next step.

thoughts?
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  #10  
Old 06-27-2011
yann yann is offline
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Thanks soo much for your detailed analysis !

Quote:
2. i do not see you turning your elbow for EVF.
In fact it is normal you do not see much evf, because I "discovered" it after we record this video. I've done an other sequence about the way I do evf here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JYh0SiWSNI

Quote:
3. your shoulders seem very stiff though.
That something I've never focused on. I think it might open the doors of more releaxed stroke. I'll focus on that.

Quote:
4. another small detail: your hips are drooping in the water.
I've noticed that too. I've done a lot of superman glides and I know I can do better. I think this is also related to my bended knee kick. I used to get my foot outside the water time to time and I might have impaired my balance to avoid this.

Quote:
one last thought - you may want to not think about EVF for now until your spear, stiff shoulders, and body streamline are worked on a bit more.
Thank you very much you are opening a new whole new field of improvement in my swimming. I'll work on my shoulder stiffness as a focal point since this day forth!

Yann
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