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  #11  
Old 12-12-2012
Joe Novak Joe Novak is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 16
Joe Novak
Default On the right track

Tsumrall,
I come to this forum quite often, but find myself not logging in very frequently or posting comments. While I had the advantage of having Terry as a coach for three years, I still feel I have so much to learn.

First, let me say you are on the right track - which is easy to tell by your performance and improvment.

On a side note: It's interesting because I always loved to race, and felt I was a very good "meet" swimmer in that I was usually able to swim fast and perform well when it mattered. However, what I miss most about my days with Terry and swimming mindfully wasn't any of the performances, but the practices. I couldn't wait to find out what we were doing each day and how we were going to be challenged. I could go on about this, but will save that for some other time.

The bottom line is that Velocity = SL X SR. Your stroke rate appears to be good. You have a faster Tempo than the guy next to you in the 50 free at the meet - so the only explanation is he is getting more distance per stroke.

When I started swimming with Terry I was very comfortable swimming at a high tempo, but it was always an "unexplained mystery" why guys 5'8" could swim faster than me (I am 6'4"). It wasn't until I learned how to swim more efficiently at slow speeds and then the practice (but more so the confidence) to take the longer stroke into a 50 free.

My favorite sets were golf 50's, where the goal was to get the lowest combination of strokes and time. Every week it seemed like we were able to chip away at lowering part of the equation.

Most often I recall doing:
3 rounds of 3 X 50 (on some easy interval)
The goal was to descend our golf score by 50 and by round. So if the first round was:
1st 50: 21 strokes and 30 seconds = 51
2nd 50: 21 strokes and 29 seconds = 50
3rd 50: 22 strokes and 27 seconds = 49

The goal of the second set was to start the golf score lower than the 1st 50 of the 1st round.
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  #12  
Old 12-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumrall View Post
Charles, I'm glad you replied. I enjoy your posts here, on USMS and elsewhere.
Thank you so much for your kind words.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumrall View Post
It doesn't appear we are that far off because there is no difference between me swimming at .47-.60 pace with TT and sprinting/"raising a storm". The advantage of the TT in the all out sprint is to make sure I don't deceive myself about going fast when I'm not. It's my trainer. I simply use it to ensure that my hands are in fact turning over as fast or faster than male Olympian speeds AND that I can control the tempo with precision.
Oh then I got it all wrong. Pursue, it's the right way to go. I did that in fact with a fellow named Hywel Davis in 2010 whilst being fortunate enough to participate to our first Coaches' education seminar. We set the TT at a fairly high rate (I think it was 94rpm) and let him swim a 50m in this manner. What I wanted to demonstrate is that he was probably trying to sprint at a rate that was too low in the past, since this test immediately resulted into a PB over both 50 and 100m, swam with merely 5min rest in between, and having warmed up for only 200m or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumrall View Post
Nathan Adrian spoke to that once, saying that he wanted to make sure he was practicing a good grip on the water, not "slipping". The wiring happens when trying to accomplish a certain torgue and length of stroke at the steadily decreasing tempo. Without the TT, I'll say I'm sprinting but I later realize I was just slacking.
This reminds me a very good friend of mine at the time, Varsity Nat level swimmer, lowish 23 over 50 (LCM), lowish 1min over 100m (absolutely not normal) so a flat out 50 specialist that couldn't swim the 100m. He was cool with this. The 50 would be enough. Most of this training done in the Gym, whereas in the pool, Sculling would be a huge component of his training, that with starts turns etc... When I mention huge component, we're talking about kilos of sculling, which (it's been long time but based on my memory) was composing probably 50% of his abnormally low weekly swim mileage.

Gimme grip, gimme power, I got what I need.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-12-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2012
tsumrall tsumrall is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 34
tsumrall
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Novak View Post
Tsumrall,
I come to this forum quite often, but find myself not logging in very frequently or posting comments. While I had the advantage of having Terry as a coach for three years, I still feel I have so much to learn.

First, let me say you are on the right track - which is easy to tell by your performance and improvment.

On a side note: It's interesting because I always loved to race, and felt I was a very good "meet" swimmer in that I was usually able to swim fast and perform well when it mattered. However, what I miss most about my days with Terry and swimming mindfully wasn't any of the performances, but the practices. I couldn't wait to find out what we were doing each day and how we were going to be challenged. I could go on about this, but will save that for some other time.

The bottom line is that Velocity = SL X SR. Your stroke rate appears to be good. You have a faster Tempo than the guy next to you in the 50 free at the meet - so the only explanation is he is getting more distance per stroke.

When I started swimming with Terry I was very comfortable swimming at a high tempo, but it was always an "unexplained mystery" why guys 5'8" could swim faster than me (I am 6'4"). It wasn't until I learned how to swim more efficiently at slow speeds and then the practice (but more so the confidence) to take the longer stroke into a 50 free.

My favorite sets were golf 50's, where the goal was to get the lowest combination of strokes and time. Every week it seemed like we were able to chip away at lowering part of the equation.

Most often I recall doing:
3 rounds of 3 X 50 (on some easy interval)
The goal was to descend our golf score by 50 and by round. So if the first round was:
1st 50: 21 strokes and 30 seconds = 51
2nd 50: 21 strokes and 29 seconds = 50
3rd 50: 22 strokes and 27 seconds = 49

The goal of the second set was to start the golf score lower than the 1st 50 of the 1st round.
Joe,
Thank you for the response. I forgot about stroke golf. I'll start playing with that.

Yes, I'm nearly 6'3 and that the little guy beat me has bothered me so bad. It's clear he was getting more from his stroke than me and it's clear that I got a little more from mine just 2 nights earlier, so, I know strokes effeciency is where it is.

What I don't know is how much of that is due to drag (my legs love to sink), breaking streamline (I'm afraid sometimes my shoulders and hips become disconnected) or lack of feel for the water (in which case I'm starting to work in alot of sculling). But that guy next to me lives about 45 minutes south and I'd really like to go visit his practice soon and "put things right" haha.
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  #14  
Old 12-12-2012
tsumrall tsumrall is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 34
tsumrall
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
When I mention huge component, we're talking about kilos of sculling, which (it's been long time but based on my memory) was composing probably 50% of his abnormally low weekly swim mileage.

Gimme grip, gimme power, I got what I need.
I'm doing about 1000 yards of various sculling positions per week. That's up about double from last month. Tell me more about it if you have anything.
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2013
carltontong carltontong is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
carltontong
Default For Sprinter, you may try " shoulder driven"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumrall View Post
Terry,
I am very interested to see what kind of training you would recommend for a sprinter. I'm particularly curious, given that you created this unique and effective process for learning to swim and you have experience with coaching sprinters.

I discovered swimming kind of by accident in March of 2011. So, I am now 21 months into swimming at 42 years of age. I have been teaching myself. I have been "living" the sport and I want to continue to pursue it as a lifestyle. On that note, I have some ideas that I would like to run past you when the time is right.

I look forward to attending some of your teaching events and possibly becoming a coach.

I will link you to a few video samples on YouTube. I would really appreciate some recommendations for sprint training. I've been using my Tempo Trainer for about 3 months and I would love to see some samples of the most highly effective neural training geared for competing in sprint events.

From my assessment, I have plenty of upside by working on balance and streamline. In sprinting, I'm going to need to pay attention to developing an effective, efficient kick also.

Anyway, any specifics that you or anyone on this forum could provide would be greatly enjoyed and appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ-kNA18dxw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkhxAu2tsaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a349sPoXhkA

The last link is my first (and only) competition-to-date. I got placed in a heat with a couple of younger guys that were former college swimmers. I am the tall guy with the black/gray/white cap. 28.66 seconds 50 free.

I have since gone just under 27 seconds from a push off in practice, using the tempo trainer.

Looking forward to comments. Thanks everyone!!
You may type in key word shoulder driven in youtube and that is a technique for sprinter
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