Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-07-2011
Burger Burger is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 19
Burger
Default Spearing: should you see your hand when your spearing arm is fully extended?

Swimming face down seeing the floor of the pool made me realize the spearing and seeing your hand with just your eyes looking up is a major source of drag.

Like I do the:
______ o
......... \


instead of the streamlined nearly straight spinal head and raised arm alignment. Somehow I balance best on that position. With the hand spearing at 4:30 o`clock position instead of the 3 or 3:30 o`clock. Been experimenting with the Hand spearing at 3 to 3:30 o`clock position seems to be better with the slight tension on the spearing and breathing since the Hand in 4:30 o`clock position is the position i best balance with.

Should I just work on 3 to 3:30 hand spearing position and do the brute force approach of building muscular endurance? or Do the seems to be high drag 4:30 o`clock hand spearing and be effortlessly balanced.

Or Im totally doing things wrong haahhaa.

Last edited by Burger : 07-07-2011 at 05:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-08-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

I think that either spear angle is valid.

Why you would want one spear angle over another will vary based on your skill level, your balance in the water given your body type and water conditions, and your level of fatigue.

I, like you, have found that for skating practice, I must spear deeper than for when I am swimming at speed. This is because my hips drop down a lot unless I counterbalance it with a deeper spear. This is especially true for slow speeds. But, at faster speeds, I think you'll find that you can spear more horizontal without your hips dropping due to momentum keeping you more horizontal in the water.

Also, the deeper you spear, the more frontal area of your arm you present to the direction of motion and the water pressing against it which will cause some drag. However, the little bit of arm drag from a deeper spear is much less than the drag caused by the length of your body drooping in the water from poor balance! So at slower speeds with less forward momentum, you use a deeper spear to get your butt higher, and you can go forward with a lot more ease.

As you get faster, you'll find that you'll want to spear higher to reduce even the drag caused by a deeper spearing arm and that you'll not need to spear so deep anyways because you're moving faster. Plus, as you use the momentum of the spear itself, you'll want to direct more of the momentum forward in the direction of travel, meaning you'll spear more forward and horizontal.

Also, I think you do not need to think "brute force" of endurance building. I would think of "how can I increase propulsion with the least amount of energy expended"? And as a clue, the perfect spear has a lot to do with it...!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-08-2011
Burger Burger is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 19
Burger
Default

Thanks for the fast reply.

Well i have been doing slow swimming with a 4:30 o`clock spear, like 30 minutes for 1km. And with a high SR of around 22 for a 25m lap. Although I dont feel any fatigue after the continuous 1km swim. Except for the funny nose feeling from exhaling water and expulsion of snot. hehehee


I theorized that it might be my 4:30 spearing hand since it would be like a very short vessel instead of the "long vessel" that exemplifies low drag and glide position. Not counting the drag that comes along with the the 4:30 spearing and acts like an anchor that breaks the glide.


I dont know how to approach the problem systematically. Although im positive that im balanced and streamlined. I have been experimenting with the 3 o`clock spearing and it seems be working my SR for a 25m length is now 17 and definitely faster, the trade off seems to be a little bit more effort and energy . Maybe due to extra balancing or the effort for propulsion for the Glide for a more patient Catch.

I might start with more propulsion maybe my body is used to lazy swimming emphasizing more energetic weight shifts and drive. A couple more pool session with a 3 o`clock spear and ill know if my body will adopt to it painlessly.


How do you describe a perfect spear?

And is it possible to go faster with a 4:30 spear without spearing like a madman? Only way i can think of in order to go faster in a 4:30 o`clock spear is to pull harder so that in order not to increase the already horrible SR.

Last edited by Burger : 07-08-2011 at 10:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-09-2011
daveblt daveblt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 820
daveblt
Default

[quote=Burger;20567

How do you describe a perfect spear?

SR.[/QUOTE]




First , the relaxed hand is JUST over the water on recovery and then the hand and arm slips in to the water with no splash or bubbles on a track at least in front of the shoulder with the hand below elbow and elbow below the shoulder . That's about it ,it can't get any better then that .


Dave
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-09-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger View Post
I theorized that it might be my 4:30 spearing hand since it would be like a very short vessel instead of the "long vessel" that exemplifies low drag and glide position. Not counting the drag that comes along with the the 4:30 spearing and acts like an anchor that breaks the glide.
I would tend to agree in general that a longer vessel would get you better glide and thus your arm extended such that there is more horizontal length of your body means longer vessel -> better glide.

however, the fact that your 4:30 arm is bringing your hips up due to counterbalancing is going to reduce drag a lot more at that low speed than spearing more horizontally but your butt is dragging more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger View Post
I dont know how to approach the problem systematically. Although im positive that im balanced and streamlined. I have been experimenting with the 3 o`clock spearing and it seems be working my SR for a 25m length is now 17 and definitely faster, the trade off seems to be a little bit more effort and energy . Maybe due to extra balancing or the effort for propulsion for the Glide for a more patient Catch.

I might start with more propulsion maybe my body is used to lazy swimming emphasizing more energetic weight shifts and drive. A couple more pool session with a 3 o`clock spear and ill know if my body will adopt to it painlessly.
Coach Shinji and Coach Dave Cameron have both run me through multiple drills to isolate and attempt to work on the non-pulling arm aspects of propulsion. They are too numerous to describe on this forum post though. Can you get to a TI seminar?

Another way is to post some video so we can comment on something specific to try.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger View Post
And is it possible to go faster with a 4:30 spear without spearing like a madman? Only way i can think of in order to go faster in a 4:30 o`clock spear is to pull harder so that in order not to increase the already horrible SR.
Spearing like a madman is definitely something i have tried but it takes a lot of energy and can only be done for short sprints and not really maintainable for long distance, or at least hard to maintain. Same goes to pull harder. Also for either, the more you drive either hand to spear or stroke, the more chance that you will upset the coordination of the other elements of propulsion elsewhere.

I think one thing to try is to simply make your stroking arm stroke with minimal energy back and then play with using only the spearing arm to propel you forward. Then, try to use as minimal energy as possible with conscious use of shoulder/arm muscles to drive the spearing arm forward, and then use other things like hip rotation and toe flick of the 2BK. Focus on hip rotation or toe flick one at a time to minimize the things to concentrate on.

Use the black lane tiles and the alternating color floats of the lane lines passing by you to gauge how fast you're moving forward. Does one action produce more propulsion than another?

Once you figure these things out in isolation, then try to add them together one after another.

I think you will find that you can find a way to swim that is not consciously driving your spear arm forward and also not using so much energy to stroke back to generate maximal propulsion.

Now having said that, there are times when you would want to have a more aggressive spear and more energy stroking back. But work on coordination first of all the elements and then slowly increase the energy of the spear forward and stroke back so that you're not inadvertantly destroying the coordination in the process, which is most important.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-09-2011
Burger Burger is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 19
Burger
Default

thanks..

i think your spot on. When i swam earlier before reading your reply. I did notice that my toe flick comes earlier than my spear. Suddenly it dawned to me to at least find a solution involving doing the spear, hip rotation and toe flick to produce a more continuous action when spearing atlernatively with both hands.



I think i got a very bad idea of how the toe flick initiates the kinetic drive. I literally understood it that way subconsciously. I think its all now comes down to coordination.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-09-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger View Post
When i swam earlier before reading your reply. I did notice that my toe flick comes earlier than my spear.
here's a hint: Terry is fond of saying to use the toe flick to send your spear on its way forward. In order for that to happen, your spear must already be in the water and just about to move forward by the time you flick your toe in the 2BK. this causes the flick to give a nudge to the hip rotation, giving more authority to the spear forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger View Post
Suddenly it dawned to me to at least find a solution involving doing the spear, hip rotation and toe flick to produce a more continuous action when spearing atlernatively with both hands.

I think i got a very bad idea of how the toe flick initiates the kinetic drive. I literally understood it that way subconsciously. I think its all now comes down to coordination.
Another focal point to try is focusing on the hip's rotation back and forth to initiate the spear and action. This may also help coordination.

A tempo trainer may also help. Try syncing the beep to your hip rotation, or to your toe flick (in addition to the spear dropping into the water and also try syncing to the beep when your spearing hand reaches full extension).

You may find that syncing the beep to the lower part of your body means the other parts of your body need to get moving and do the right thing in order for you to hit the beep correctly.

Keep us updated on your progress!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-10-2011
Burger Burger is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 19
Burger
Default

hehe tried fixing timing and balance and coordination.

Great improvement in terms of slippery and a little less effort in doing the laps. Less splashing and turbulence also.

Somehow i delayed my pull and wait for my toe flick and body rotate before I start my soft pull. This greatly soften my pull as my arms and hands are nearer to my body because of the rotation. My hands and arms are nearer to my body and not far where it works as a lever to my disadvantage.

But i still get the feeling the speed improvement is still marginal. Ill try to time it tomorrow. 1km swim.

Last edited by Burger : 07-10-2011 at 05:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.