Rotation - Over Rotation vs Just Enough

[cynthcor]

Hey everybody. Finally managed to get back in the pool today for a focused meditative swim after 2 weeks of craziness at work and some really cold water that made swimming feel more like a workout than the joy that I'd previously been experiencing.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of rotation/over rotation/just enough and spent the majority of my swim today focusing on breathing equally on both sides in preparation for OW season.

I found this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhubEayA1Qk

and wanted some reflection on the rotation that the swimmer uses when she swtiches to whole stroke at the end of the clip. I'm not sure how old the clip is, possibly this is before the current just enough focus, but it just appears to me that she's over rotating.

[westyswoods]

I agree that as TI is currently taught the whole stroke shows over rotation. It is difficult to ascertain if this is what has been taught or if it is more a result of trying to keep balance, especially evident on breathing stokes.

Not to long ago this was more towards the normal than the just enough philosophy of today.

Ideally if we keep a flat back not allowing the arm to move behind us during recovery while the fingers drag along the water in a straight line from exit to spear, this should give about proper rotation.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy

[CoachKevin]

Originally Posted by cynthcor

Hey everybody. Finally managed to get back in the pool today for a focused meditative swim after 2 weeks of craziness at work and some really cold water that made swimming feel more like a workout than the joy that I'd previously been experiencing.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of rotation/over rotation/just enough and spent the majority of my swim today focusing on breathing equally on both sides in preparation for OW season.

I found this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhubEayA1Qk

and wanted some reflection on the rotation that the swimmer uses when she swtiches to whole stroke at the end of the clip. I'm not sure how old the clip is, possibly this is before the current just enough focus, but it just appears to me that she's over rotating.

The swimmer isn't really "rotating" at all during whole stroke (she was rotating a lot more doing her switch drills). The torso looks like it's "turning", but the hips are staying relatively flat. That's what I refer to as "residual" rotation - the only reason there's any turn of the torso is because the arms are reaching forward. For us, rotation/weight shifts are purposeful, pushing the arms forward to lengthen/spear. Her "cause & effect" are backwards which happens when someone's old swimming takes over their new drilling.

This swimmer hasn't made the connection between her new drilling & swimming. It's pretty typical. You can tell that she's not ready to "swim" (much) yet - she's tense & angular, her kick is over-active, her recovery is abrupt & hand focused (rather than relaxed & elbow focused) and her lead hand is VERY impatient all the time, especially on breathing strokes.

[westyswoods]

I reviewed the video of the swimmer with many starts and stops while doing so.

I disagree with Coach Kevin when he says there is no rotation. I do definitely see Coaches points about there being no integrated and or coordination of that rotation and that it is hand and arm driven.

The hips rotate not nearly as much as the torso but look to be more of a passive and uncoordinated result of the upper body and kicking while attempting to maintain balance.

Very good explanation Coach.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy

[cynthcor]

I can see both of your points. It is quite hard to see her hips rotate but a twist of the torso is there. This seems to me to be a combination of the black suit impairing the clarity and the kicking action that seems to be keeping her from getting a full rotation of the hips. The upper torso does seem disjointed from the lower torso. Definitely something to think about when I'm drilling.

For as many times as I have watched the video's of Shinji, Terry and others, it really just hit me in my research last night that there is considerable more body rotation than what I think I'm getting. Time to bring the camera out again.

Thanks for the reply.

[CoachKevin]

Originally Posted by cynthcor

I can see both of your points. It is quite hard to see her hips rotate but a twist of the torso is there. This seems to me to be a combination of the black suit impairing the clarity and the kicking action that seems to be keeping her from getting a full rotation of the hips. The upper torso does seem disjointed from the lower torso. Definitely something to think about when I'm drilling.

Twisting, both as a stroke thought, and a stroke action, is not good. It's not just semantics either. The words we use often have to "paint" the right picture for a swimmer. One of the good things about having access to swimmers for an entire weekend of instruction is that these pictures can be "touched up" repeatedly before the wrong picture develops too completely.

It's pretty clear that her butt (attached to the hips) moves VERY little & the feet are always moving up&down except when she breathes. But that's not keeping her from rotating. The fact that she's "all arms" means that she finishes her recovery long before she could purposefully rotate. Hence the act of reaching forward just "drags" her torso from one side to the other.
Another left over swim habit is her kick - it's pretty nervous, what I call "happy feet". The legs are moving, but to what end? One of the first things I'd do with this student is change her kick.

Originally Posted by cynthcor

For as many times as I have watched the video's of Shinji, Terry and others, it really just hit me in my research last night that there is considerable more body rotation than what I think I'm getting. Time to bring the camera out again.

We'd love to see your drilling & swimming, cynthcor.

[CoachKevin]

Originally Posted by westyswoods

I disagree with Coach Kevin when he says there is no rotation. I do definitely see Coaches points about there being no integrated and or coordination of that rotation and that it is hand and arm driven.

Westy, I didn't say there is no rotation, but that it is residual, which is why I put rotating in quotation marks. And it's only rotation as defined in the dictionary, not as TI defines it. We define rotation as rolling the body (shifting weight) from side-to-side like rolling a log - everything rolls as a unit with no twist at the waist. So purposeful rotation, done with thought & desire to roll the body from side-to-side is what we're after.

[aquarius]

Originally Posted by CoachKevin

For us, rotation/weight shifts are purposeful, pushing the arms forward to lengthen/spear. Her "cause & effect" are backwards which happens when someone's old swimming takes over their new drilling.

How does rotation push the arm forward? I can understand how the weight of the arm, when it's pushed forward, can cause rotation, but not the reverse.

So I fail to see what's really backwards here.

The notion of "purposeful rotation" would require defining what the purpose of rotation is. I always thought it was to allow for a more efficient and less strainful arm stroke.

A lot of swimming issues seem to be of the chicken and egg type...

[Janos]

I really fail to see what relevance the clip has to TI swimming. Is the swimmers style an aspirational one for anybody?
The swimmer is trying to push backwards to propel forwards. Which is diametrically opposed to the TI philosophy of pushing forward via hip rotation around the fulcrum point of a firm and patient catch.
Rotational power in TI style comes from the hips, the shoulders articulate the recovery and catch and place the arms in their most advantageous position i.e front quadrant position, and the hips drive the stroke.
You can easily replicate the action on dryland by standing in your socks on a polished floor, in front of a mirror. Mimic your stroke and as you push your arm up in its spearing action, push it the final foot or so with your hips twisting and supporting the spear. Your legs will be pushed to one side, and then the other as you repeat. You will be able to monitor how much your hips rotate for each stroke...and it will be less than you think.

[cynthcor]

Originally Posted by Janos

I really fail to see what relevance the clip has to TI swimming. Is the swimmers style an aspirational one for anybody?

Janos - I found this clip by searching on TI Drills on YouTube and it is clearly marked as a TI Drill clip, thus my question.

CoachKevin your comment on hips leading the spear/rotation vs the arm pulling rotation along made a big difference in the way I thought about the movement today. I focused on the action of my hips first and then the follow through with my spearing arm and it helped me to get greater rotation. Thank you for response.