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  #1  
Old 03-30-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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sclim
Default Exact Trajectory of Hands after Push-Off from Wall

I have a question that I am surprised I didn't need to address before. Oh, I guess I think I know the answer to that one -- there were so many other pressing deficiencies to my form that the answer to this question seemed immaterial until and unless I got a better grip on technique, generally. But the question has been bugging me recently, and I would like to know the proper and correct procedure.

When one pushes off from the wall, the initial velocity is so high that it makes sense to address streamlining to the highest level of detail. I assume that is why we are taught to overlap our palms and fingers, squeeze one hand firmly with the wrapping-around thumb of the other, reach as far forward as possible, squeeze the elbows to the ears, or rather to the sides of the head behind the ears, and generally have as long a clean line as possible with a smooth taper to the narrow, flattened point in front.

When the first arm-pull (or placement for arm anchoring) is due, the hands separate and the pulling arm begins its catch and goes on to the pull/anchor phase. The catch and pull ideally should take place on the line of one of the "the separate and parallel tracks" that are at shoulder width. So, my question is: does this first catch take place somewhat closer to the centre-line than subsequent catches (which can benefit from a mail-slot entry at the correct width, on the appropriate parallel track)? And if so, is there a gradual lateral drift of the hand during the catch so that that hand is at the appropriate parallel track width to perform the pull/anchor phase?

Or should the hand immediately leave the centre-line on letting go the other hand, to arrive at its station as soon as possible, so that the catch is initiated exactly at the same parallel-track width as all the subsequent catches?

Similarly, what to do with the lead hand: once it disconnects from the other (catching) hand, should the lead hand gradually drift outwards? Or should it move laterally immediately once it disconnects with the other hand, so as to minimize the time it is angled towards the midline all alone, once it has broken off from the other overlapping hand, and the "boat prow" formation is no longer there?
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Arm depth is another point to consider

How do you get those arms down to TI depth for spear and catch?

Coming off a true streamline your first catch and pull is going to be Thorpe like extreme evf maybe even the 2nd catch too.

Generally i break both at the same time
sweep the lead arm out to a wide track in time with the catch arm trying to find some rapid depth to get a catch that isnt right under the surface

I tend to elevate the upperbody to alleviate this which stalls momentum i kind of heave the chest up out of the water a bit.
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  #3  
Old 03-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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It is better to make sure that first pull is pulled through from the hip counter rotating and the shoulder muscles as it will really load them.
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
...
Or should the hand immediately leave the centre-line on letting go the other hand, to arrive at its station as soon as possible, so that the catch is initiated exactly at the same parallel-track width as all the subsequent catches?

Similarly, what to do with the lead hand: once it disconnects from the other (catching) hand, should the lead hand gradually drift outwards? Or should it move laterally immediately once it disconnects with the other hand, so as to minimize the time it is angled towards the midline all alone, once it has broken off from the other overlapping hand, and the "boat prow" formation is no longer there?
Hi Sclim,

You're making it more complex than it needs to be. Whether arms are streamline off the wall (hands clasped) or on tracks (superman like), allow high side arm to *flow* to release at hip, resist the impulse to pull or catch. Many or maybe most swimmers start with low side arm, pull to rotate body on first stroke - this causes an immediate deceleration with that pull and rotation. Come off the wall on your edge, and stay on that edge for the first stroke carry the velocity from the wall to the surface.

Stu
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Old 04-03-2018
gnuelyc gnuelyc is offline
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Hello, Coach Stuart

I am not with you, can you explain further
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Come off the wall on your edge, and stay on that edge for the first stroke carry the velocity from the wall to the surface.
Stu
Looking back at the clips e.g. Coach Mandy 2-beat kick demo analysis or
Shinji's 9 or 12 strokes free style techniques

they are all coming off the wall flat and streamlined. I should say they are starting their swim and not flip turning.

What I am currently doing when I start a swim is
- at 'around' the point of losing the initial streamline momentum
- get my R hand into pull position and slightly move the L hand away from
the centre line near to the shoulder line
- turn my L side lats and hip to get into the skate or edge position
while initiating the first R hand pull
- then the first R hand recovery and L hand anchoring

Sam
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnuelyc View Post
Hello, Coach Stuart

I am not with you, can you explain further


Looking back at the clips e.g. Coach Mandy 2-beat kick demo analysis or
Shinji's 9 or 12 strokes free style techniques

they are all coming off the wall flat and streamlined. I should say they are starting their swim and not flip turning.

What I am currently doing when I start a swim is
- at 'around' the point of losing the initial streamline momentum
- get my R hand into pull position and slightly move the L hand away from
the centre line near to the shoulder line
- turn my L side lats and hip to get into the skate or edge position
while initiating the first R hand pull
- then the first R hand recovery and L hand anchoring

Sam
Hi Sam,

Sure thing. This is more of a description of launching off the wall after the turn or tumble - not from the platform or initial in water start. Although the in-water start I always launch off the wall on my edge (not flat off stomach).

Whether open turn or flip turn, the swimmer will launch off the wall with one shoulder/hip lower than the other, or what I'm referring to previously as "the edge" or skating edge. Start the breakout with the high-side arm, not pulling, but rather flowing the arm at the same velocity as the body moving forward releasing the arm at the hip - carrying the max velocity and momentum from the wall to the surface. Conventional wisdom has always taught us to break-out with the low side arm, pulling the body through rotation on the first stroke. This rotation, added movement and pulling arm stunts this velocity (increased drag) losing valuable momentum and speed off the wall.

A great way to observe from the deck whether or not a swimmer is carrying max velocity from wall to surface is observe the swimmer's wake off the wall. Is the wake pear-shaped or is narrow and clean? The pear-shape wake is caused by the initial rotation the swimmer pulling with low-side arm; narrow wake = max speed, no deceleration.

Hope that helps

Stu
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Sam,

Sure thing. This is more of a description of launching off the wall after the turn or tumble - not from the platform or initial in water start. Although the in-water start I always launch off the wall on my edge (not flat off stomach).

Whether open turn or flip turn, the swimmer will launch off the wall with one shoulder/hip lower than the other, or what I'm referring to previously as "the edge" or skating edge. Start the breakout with the high-side arm, not pulling, but rather flowing the arm at the same velocity as the body moving forward releasing the arm at the hip - carrying the max velocity and momentum from the wall to the surface. Conventional wisdom has always taught us to break-out with the low side arm, pulling the body through rotation on the first stroke. This rotation, added movement and pulling arm stunts this velocity (increased drag) losing valuable momentum and speed off the wall.

A great way to observe from the deck whether or not a swimmer is carrying max velocity from wall to surface is observe the swimmer's wake off the wall. Is the wake pear-shaped or is narrow and clean? The pear-shape wake is caused by the initial rotation the swimmer pulling with low-side arm; narrow wake = max speed, no deceleration.

Hope that helps

Stu
So flow the high side arm to the hip then recover it in time with low side arm catching to make the first stroke a high side arm driven stroke (not a pull) ?
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  #8  
Old 04-04-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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In short, yes. Hold your edge with lead (low side) arm extended, high side arm flows to release/exit past hip - weight and momentum of (recovery) arm carries it forward while body maintains velocity off the wall.

Stu
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