Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-16-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default Why do we go to the surface after arm entry?

Talking about a thing that happens a lot in warmup low effort swimming.
Ok for a lot of us we go to the surface after arm entry becAuse some instinct wants to lift our front up.
But that is not the only reason.
Countless top swimmers spear and then let the arm go up again to the surface. They are relaxed in the water and have surpassed the drowning instincts.
If you swim relaxed and have a relaxed entry, this is the natural path for the arm to go after spearing in and let the bodyrotation drive the shoulder down.
Terry also talks about the dwnspearing action to line up the arm with the cirkular speed of the rotation and the forward speed combined.
If you dont want to dampen the bodyrottaion you have to follow that combined speed vector with the direction of the arm entry.
At the same time competetive swimmers want to grab water as much forward as possible, so they also want that arm to extend upfront and than wrap the arm around the ball of water upfront.
The resulting motion is a spear, shoulder rotates further down, while hand is reaching forward, arm reaches over ball of water until bodyroll has ended and than water is locked in. Because the shoulder rotates down when the hand goes forward in a leisurly way you get that wrong elbow below hand movement. At higher rates this usually disappears.
(Enough other swimmers use the energy of the bodyrotation in a fast downangled cacth , but that is at a much higher strokerate.)
The whole process can be seen very well in the girls movement form 7-9 second.
She has superb feel for the water in her whole stroke.Supernice kick tied in to bodyroll. Probably a swimmer who can swim fast even with dropped elbows.
She goes over the ball of water very smoothly without causing much drag mninizing the putting on the brakes effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tGEykDjKno#t=15.092949

Thorpe has the same `problem`
`https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_sDYHYzFw

Usually good swimmers who do it have an propulsive kick, but not always.
Maarten vd Weijden is doing it rather pronounced and still keeps excellent balance with very little kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BoeJAUnXpI (4min 40 to 4min50)
Although you wouldnt expect top swimmers to need support on their breathing, the action is almost always more visable on the non breathing side, so the action is pushing water down a bit to support the head while breathing.

This is not to promote people doing the same. Just trying to explain what is happening.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-16-2016 at 12:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-16-2016
IngeA IngeA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 150
IngeA
Default

I have the same problem (if I understood you right).
I have to concentrate on deeper spearing otherwise I am spearing downwards first and then to about 3 o clock (or higher).
I have no problems with balance, I never had. My shoulders are very flexible, so this flat spearing doesn't lead to sinking feet. So it took much time to realise the problem.
But it is much more difficult to get the elbow high and if swimming with high elbow more than just a few lines I get problems with my shoulder. The angle is not well for rotating in the shoulder.
Now I'm not concentrating on high elbow but on spearing deeper. So automatically the elbow is deeper than the shoulder and the hand deeper than the elbow and the catch is easier and more effective.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-16-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

You have to have your bodyline nailed down rocksolid and be able to use a high elbow to get away with it I guess.
Being gently can help, good timing also helps.
If you keep the arm to long at the surface you are to late for your catch and you will be pressing water down in a rush to keep up with the rest of the stroke.
General consensus is to better never go that route and always keep the elbow above wrist, wrist above fingers.
Spearing angle also depends on your speed. High forward speed, low bodyroll speed, flatter resultant vector.
Low forward speed, high roll speed= steeper resultant arm movement direction.
At least a deeper spear is better than pressing water down.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-16-2016 at 10:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-16-2016
IngeA IngeA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 150
IngeA
Default

Sorry, language problem.

"You have to have your bodyline nailed down rocksolid"

I don't understand what do you mean?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-16-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Having a straight and balanced body starting positon that gives the freedom to do more things with your arms and head position.
You are lucky with good natural balance. I believe you could even lift the head and still stay balanced.
Next step is to hold body tone and line so the midsection is not like a wet noodle, but like a straight kayak staying in proper shape right at the surface.
Strange you get shoulder problems when going a bit higher with the arms.
It could be a pure shoulder problem. It also could also be a timing thing.
You cant expect hanging on to a forward extended arm and than be suddenly in a catch postion. You have to move it to catch gently right after a relative flat extension, or spear deeper right from the start otherwise you will be pushing water down with a long arm, and that is bad for your shoulder.

When looking at the girls arm movement from 7 -9 sec its clear what the differnce is between spearing deep and keeping the arm there or reaching farther forward up and over the ball.
She can keep the arm at the same angle right after the spear and drag her arm through that ball of water, or steer it up and over the ball, get a hold on it and press it backwards.
If the spearangle isnt too steep and you keep the spear straight you are spearing right through the ball, so that isnt too bad either.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-16-2016 at 01:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-16-2016
ti97
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello ZT,

"Reaching over the VW hood" is new to me and was not taught in the early days of TI....I have tried it, but I seem to fall back to a flatter mail slot entry....I drag fingers a lot on drills so maybe that conditions a more shallow spearing.

I don't understand the purpose of deeper spearing....it seems to me like I am not reaching for a "high enough rung" on the ladder when I spear deep.

I do notice some swimmers spear a few inches deeper only to reach back up toward the surface before their pull....

Just for fun, I will try some deeper spearing again this morning.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-16-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Your spear depth has to do with your shoulder/hip flexor flexibility and your balance.
Stiff shoulder, sinking legs, stiff ankles, bad kicking technique, stiff hipflexors often require a deeper spear to get level.
It also can help in its own right to prevent shoulder trouble, but as you see, its all rather personal.

A deep spear is not ideal in my view, but could be the best compromise for some.

more about it in
http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=8611

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-16-2016 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-16-2016
IngeA IngeA is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 150
IngeA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Strange you get shoulder problems when going a bit higher with the arms.
It could be a pure shoulder problem. It also could also be a timing thing.
You cant expect hanging on to a forward extended arm and than be suddenly in a catch postion. You have to move it to catch gently right after a relative flat extension, or spear deeper right from the start otherwise you will be pushing water down with a long arm, and that is bad for your shoulder.
I think it's a mixture of all. My glenoid cavitys are rather small and flat, so the shoulder wasn't in good shape even before I started swimming. It got better the last years, because I built up the rotator cuff so the joint is fixed now.
And it's definitively also a timing problem. I'm trying now that the elbow is a bit deeper than the shoulder and the hand a bit deeper then the elbow. So it's not a really "deep" spear. That doesn't give my shoulders any problems.
The other possibility, to move the arm gently in the right position I will try another time.
I've several other flaws to work on which seem graver to me ;o)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-16-2016
ti97
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Your spear depth has to do with your shoulder/hip flexor flexibility and your balance.
Stiff shoulder, sinking legs, stiff ankles, bad kicking technique, stiff hipflexors often require a deeper spear to get level.
It also can help in its own right to prevent shoulder trouble, but as you see, its all rather personal.

A deep spear is not ideal in my view, but could be the best compromise for some.

more about it in
http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=8611
ZT-
tried deep spear again today....couldn't get good "traction" in the pull

I agree it is not optimal (for me anyhow).....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-17-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ti97 View Post
ZT-
tried deep spear again today....couldn't get good "traction" in the pull

I agree it is not optimal (for me anyhow).....
did you get video feedback on what you were actually doing ?
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.