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  #71  
Old 10-25-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Beginners swim with their arms way way too much. How can we blame them, mental image of someone swimming is a body flipping the arms over then under then over then underwater.
After a post of considerable intellectual input, this is what rings home for me. I think I still swim with too much arms. Much less than a beginner, but probably much more than a guy swimming a 24 minute mile.
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  #72  
Old 10-25-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Default I Tried It.

Charles, Andy

I tried it, unmitigated disaster. Having followed this thread with great interest, bottom line being I don't understand what is happening with this movement. I never expected to be close to efficient, although it was not even close.

Andy just yesterday while in the last 100 of a 500, very slow, although I felt good with the stroke elements, all of a sudden my mind told me I was pulling too hard. Focused solely on letting body passively move past catch. There was a different feel and I did not really feel any decrease in propulsion. Slow is slow for me but ease and slow does feel different.


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  #73  
Old 10-26-2012
wolane wolane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
...Beginners tend to really have major difficulty keeping their core together and working it in a productive way, as soon as they're asked to rotate with minimal and unusual support. They swim with their arms way way too much. How can we blame them, mental image of someone swimming is a body flipping the arms over then under then over then underwater.

Anyway this drill is a very strange one. I'm not sure it's worth working on it when you can do it, and it's a nightmare to teach to someone that doesn't get it rapidly...
Hi Charles,

Thanks for sharing so many useful insights. I have been a long-time lurker on this forum, and this has been one of the most enlightening threads of discussion for me.

I am solidly in the "wanna be" camp; so I guess deservedly when I tried this isolated rotation drill, I failed badly. That said, I was pretty surprised that I could be so bad at it, given that I have become reasonably comfortable with many of the TI balance drills (after 3 years of regular practice), and have improved significantly over my "old swim".

I was wondering if you have seen (taught) beginners successfully learn this drill? If so, what effects did such success have on their swim? Was there a "quantum leap" from "wanna-be's" to "real swimmers"?

I am asking this because I wanted to practice this drill more, but since it was so awkard to me, I felt that the "foreignness" seemed to carry over to my swim. I am not sure this is good or bad, or if it will eventually lead to improvement or detriment.
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  #74  
Old 10-26-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by wolane View Post
Thanks for sharing so many useful insights. I have been a long-time lurker on this forum, and this has been one of the most enlightening threads of discussion for me.
Hmm I'm glad it should raise some attention

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Originally Posted by wolane View Post
I am solidly in the "wanna be" camp; so I guess deservedly when I tried this isolated rotation drill, I failed badly. That said, I was pretty surprised that I could be so bad at it, given that I have become reasonably comfortable with many of the TI balance drills (after 3 years of regular practice), and have improved significantly over my "old swim".
Hmm good point here, although I'm not sure how to interpret it.

Best TI approach to this drill has to be the active balance drill, or any other drill where balance is reached with arms along the sides, and where rotation is occurring without the help of the arms or even shoulders.

Guess what? Thanks this is what I'll be trying on Tuesday!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolane View Post
I was wondering if you have seen (taught) beginners successfully learn this drill? If so, what effects did such success have on their swim? Was there a "quantum leap" from "wanna-be's" to "real swimmers"?
Arrggrr painful question. The vast majority of the time, I manage to pull out something that moves forward, but without never reaching the level of fluidity. Most of the time, the core doesn't seem to hold together, front axis is broken, a lower leg may sometimes move laterally.

And since lateral balance isn't good, hands are used a bit in a nervous rec way.

I think it's fair to state that it's not upper body lower body balance that's problematic, except in extreme cases, it's feeling good moving from side to side controlling this action solely by the core tempo trainer set at 1.4 or something...

Tempo trainer.... I have a Training Day event on Sunday. Only in these contexts do I use a Tempo trainer. But are beginners even asked to try this drill I don't remember... For sure those who are will do it on tempo. I think it can help.

What would be a good progression... I don't know I'm not sure yet. Should we begin still just learning to master moving from side to side, triggered from the hips.

The snap must be significant enough to place the body on the side, almost 60deg, in a way that it could almost stay there, until you snap to switch side.

Now I clearly remember a nice occurrence of some almost miracle leap forward experienced by a young lady. That was special. There were many swimmers in the pool, probably 20 in 3 lanes, was busy and agitated, difficult to follow people individually. And all of a sudden I see here swimming some nice freestyle with superbe rotation, good momentum, etc. She had a pull though. But the stroke was good looking. And she was a beginner before this.

She did report having felt something very strong whilst working on IR and NAD. Like I said others are getting toward a decent execution, it's not as if they were all there not moving at all. But most of the time they take big pulls underwater instead of subtle fish like outward sculling. Sort of a doggie paddle drill but performed with the last half of the pull through.

Action is done with the arm, and not in harmony with body rotation, possibly explaining the extreme slow speed (that with the drag created by the body that can't stay composed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolane View Post
I am asking this because I wanted to practice this drill more, but since it was so awkard to me, I felt that the "foreignness" seemed to carry over to my swim. I am not sure this is good or bad, or if it will eventually lead to improvement or detriment.
My bad did I create a monster?

Some drills are known to have nasty side effects. I can't think how this could be the case here.

One thing is about this argument I had recently about the involvement of hip rotation as a means of generating power. I don't need to push hard with my hands when I do this drill. I didn't have to work on it neither. It just went forward immediately and felt great. But the best I can do often with those who perform it reversed (using hands to rotate, instead of rotating then pushing), is to ask them to place they body on a side then push.

This mentra induces a break in body rotation / sculling relationship. The subject then pushes with the arm only, and that doesn't work.

They need to push so hard with the hand with little result that the whole body reacts. Frontal axis is broken. Body twists. Creates some drag. That's not pretty.
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  #75  
Old 10-26-2012
terry terry is offline
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Default 3 Things that initiate weight shift

I feel strongly that we learn skills fastest and best when we organize our Focal Points to greatest advantage. There are two ways to organize FPs
  • By Body Segment -- I like taking inventory or 'scanning' from front to back
  • By Type of FP - Internal, External or Visualization

I'll apply the first here. In order I'd focus on the following as the 'triggers' for weight shift. This order not only follows the front-to-back framework; in my personal experience it also reflects order of importance
1. Mail Slot Entry and Spearing to VW Bumper
2. Nudge - rather than Drive - the Hip
3. Help with Toe Flick on the opposite hip.
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  #76  
Old 10-26-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Thanks Terry for sneaking in..

If you have time. Would you be kind enough to try this beast here? With a pull though :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHSYQ6BaM2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_rqKsqU_w

I think the clips are pretty self explanatory. I'm sure I wouldn't need to tell you to rotate first, then sweep (hand sculling).

I've been having issues teaching this thing.
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  #77  
Old 10-26-2012
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hey Charles!

Sorry to chime in before Terry. I've seen this video circulate in many places and have mixed feelings about it. I believe the rythmic weight shift and rotation/switch are good, fluid - and introducing breathing using switch demonstrating no need to scull or push down with lead arm to lift head to breathe. What I don't like about it is the pull buoy adding artificial buoyancy, swimming not balancing on lungs, core not engaged in this drill. The buoy is causing back to arch being suspended at hips (w/buoy) and lungs up front - no core engagement. Although I realize the primary purpose of this drill is to isolate the rotation/switch and feel this without the aid of arms and legs

The Spear-switch drill does this isolation, but also puts you in the correct position closest to whole stroke, and actually using weight shift for forward momentum when spearing forward (and much more simple to teach). Albeit not as rhythmic, but much closer to whole stroke. There is a similar drill video from TIUKSwimming (no forward spearing) that I really like; no pull buoy, light kick, arms at sides - switch/rotation from side to side maintaining balance. Notice no arch in back, balanced, head and spine in alignment and smooth switch/pivot. Maybe you've seen this one on DVD already, but if not, try this one out with your group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ngW0hGPU8wM

Cheers!

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 10-26-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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  #78  
Old 10-26-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hey Charles!

Sorry to chime in before Terry.
No probs, thanks for chiming in ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
I've seen this video circulate in many places and have mixed feelings about it. I believe the rythmic weight shift and rotation/switch are good, fluid - and introducing breathing using switch demonstrating no need to scull or push down with lead arm to lift head to breathe.
It's all true

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
What I don't like about it is the pull buoy adding artificial buoyancy, swimming not balancing on lungs, core not engaged in this drill.
The purpose of this drill is not to work on upper body vs lower body balance though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
The buoy is causing back to arch being suspended at hips (w/buoy) and lungs up front - no core engagement. Although I realize the primary purpose of this drill is to isolate the rotation/switch and feel this without the aid of arms and legs
Yeah this is correct.

In fact this drill's main purpose is to manage to achieve the same fluidity using the NAD, which is the real deal. Isolated Rotation is just a sub drill (so to speak) aimed at facilitating the learning of NAD.

The NAD is Freestyle without the arms. So there's a bit of the Active Balance drill component to it, but wrapped up in a format that is much close to actual freestyle stroke.

Where I bet to disagree with you is on the topic of core engagement. These works are still at stage of research. It's a bit difficult at the moment to issue solid conclusions. But so far, everything seems to point toward the fact that in order to execute it, you need a superbe core engagement.

Smart core I call this. Not even a strong one, a smart one. One that can dynamically engage for the benefit of maintaining a perfect posture in spite of the unanchored switches.

Could the Pull come in the way of reaching this? That could be an avenue. I would need to test with a smaller pull, ie one that doesn't provide as much buoyancy.

One thing is sure, and I'm positive here. Swimmers book this very easily, as if they had nothing to learn out of it. Others struggle to a point that's not funny. And what happens in 99% of the cases, is that the core falls apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
The Spear-switch drill does this isolation, but also puts you in the correct position closest to whole stroke
I haven't started working on that one yet, but I have a project pending that should use it.

I know about the Active Balance Drill, which is a very fair step toward the NAD.

Here's the beast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfaB4fH6IE

I'll drop you in private a link to another clip that has too many direct references which would not be welcome here. This will get you to totally understand how the IR and NAD fits into a more general context. I often compare these works to a LEGO game.
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  #79  
Old 10-27-2012
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Got it - and thanks Charles. I like the NAD version without the buoy, swimmer engages core, light kick and balances on lungs. I'll give it a try in the pool today - wooohooo! And will alternate between passive hands (keeping at sides) verses the flipping/sculling hands at the hips. Thanks for the pm too.

Cheers!

Stuart
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  #80  
Old 10-27-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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At last year's ASCA World Clinic in San Diego, Dave Marsh was doing some demonstrations with one of his swimmers in the Endless Pool Elite. After a question from the audience (forget what it was), he asked his swimmer do do a drill that was essentially what Stuart linked to. arms at sides, controlled core rotation. This was TALL lean swimmer who surely has low body fat and the same "sinking legs" problem that many triathletes have. But...he was a swimmer, not a triathlete and an elite one at that.

Dave Marsh was talking over the speaker to the audience as the swimmer was demonstrating a very "basic" drill and he said to the audience, "These balance drills are great, all that 'Terry Laughlin' stuff, you can never do too much of it'.
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