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  #11  
Old 10-02-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I understand exactly what you are saying.

Those 10/2 people are much more flexible in the shoulders than the rest of us. The fellow who commented about too much internal rotation likely has it correct.

But...

I think that each of the swimmers you've identified is doing what is comfortable for themselves. Those with more flexibility in the shoulders can naturally (well it's not naturally, but it's not forced beyond normal joint rainge) achieve more internal rotation without as much strain on the shoulder joint.

I would not suggest that all adults (or kids) try to deliberately achieve this position, yet many will try as they try to emulate or artifically create an EARLY vertical forearm. it's the very early part that can be overdone and cause strain on the shoulder.

Charles...to help you understand the 10/2 , 9/3 , 8/4 references, it refers to the direction the elbow is pointing with regard to the vertical plane being noon/6, the horizontal surface of hte water being 9/3 when viewed from the feet towards the head.

Andy's photos are shown from the side, but his reference to the clock face is as if you are looking at the swimmer from head on or foot on. 10/2 has the elbows pointing up towards the surface, 9/3 has the elbows pointing directly side was, 10/4 has them aiming slightly down.

Horribly dropped elbows would be in the water at 6/6
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  #12  
Old 10-02-2012
azamy azamy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post

Based on my logic from the original post that the lower elbow gives more reach and DPS, I would suggest this is good argument to classify Sun Yang as a TI swimmer in style, whereas Phelps and the two girls are high stroke rate rhythmic swimmers so the elbow goes into the spear facing up so the catch can be immediate?

Looking forward to some opinions on this one.
This sounds a complicated but interesting topic Andy

I would agree that the difference between elbow angles of the elite swimmers show in the pictures is because of the higher/lower stroke rates. Terry, Shinji and Sun Yang they all have patient lead hands in their strokes = lower SR but higher DPS. Could it be possibly because of the patient lead hand? Like almost all TI swimmers? I think body rotation\shoulder flexibility\ the angle at which hand enters water all have a role in this.

My 2 cents :)
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  #13  
Old 10-02-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Charles,

Suzanne has explained the clock references. 10-2 isn't above the water since the whole 'clock' is submerged beneath the surface but the laser line from the elbow would be pointing up and out of the water.

The learning here for me is that maybe I have slightly different flexibility in my two shoulders so by being aware of that can prepare my catch differently on the less flexible side, rather than think I have 'lock' arm I will just 'pop' it on that side the way Terry et al do.
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  #14  
Old 10-02-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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The photo Charles posted pretty much says it all. That photo might as well be of a dolphin as far as my shoulders are concerned. The worlds elite swimmers are great role models up to a point but we all have our own physical and flexibility limits and the most important thing is to feel the water and experiment and measure what works for our own bodies. You get what you God gave you and you make the best of it. At the end of the day, it is the sublime joy of moving comfortably through the water and the satisfaction that learning and improving that measure success.
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  #15  
Old 10-02-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffinhawaii View Post
The photo Charles posted pretty much says it all. That photo might as well be of a dolphin as far as my shoulders are concerned. The worlds elite swimmers are great role models up to a point but we all have our own physical and flexibility limits and the most important thing is to feel the water and experiment and measure what works for our own bodies. You get what you God gave you and you make the best of it. At the end of the day, it is the sublime joy of moving comfortably through the water and the satisfaction that learning and improving that measure success.
True to a point but I don't think Sun Yang has flexibility issues, I think he chooses to keep it straight and pointing down because he is a high torque, low SR swimmer (for his speed at least). So whilst the choice isn't there for many of us a degree of choice is, so we should discuss the technical merits of both?
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  #16  
Old 10-02-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Coach Suzzane


"Charles...to help you understand the 10/2 , 9/3 , 8/4 references, it refers to the direction the elbow is pointing with regard to the vertical plane being noon/6, the horizontal surface of hte water being 9/3 when viewed from the feet towards the head."

I kind of, maybe get the above explanation. Can anyone do a schematic of this explanation, not that I'll be able to replicate. Just would like to understand a little better.

Swim Silent and Be Well
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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At last... I'm not alone LOL
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
so we should discuss the technical merits of both?
First, how would you describe what you see here?



You're suggesting that this be a catch elbow angle that's similar to that displayed by Terry/Shinji?
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  #19  
Old 10-02-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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I can't understand this thread either.
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Bahh, no shame. It took me a whilst.

It is assumed by some in this thread, that some swimmers do display a very flexible catch position.

Imagine a clock (virtual). Now take an arm, the right one for instance. Place it in front of you, as if it did entered in the water, and about to catch. Now catch the water high elbow.

Now imagine a laser beam that's popping out of this elbow. The 10-2 thingy now..... Given we're talking about your right arm. If the angle you can achieve is such, that this laser beam popping out of your elbow is pointing toward the number '2' on this virtual clock, and that your left arm is symmetrical (therefore pointing toward number '10'), then you're a 10-2 swimmer.

It is also assumed that Terry Laughlin and Shinji Takeuchi are rather pointing toward 8-4. That is the laser beam is oriented toward these numbers. Like Coach Suzanne mentioned, a perfectly dropped elbow would point toward 6.

It is also assumed that Sun Yang uses a catch angle that is similar to that displayed by Terry and Shinji (this is where I kind of disagree, hence this image I posted earlier, which shows a catch angle that to me, resemble more 10-2 than 8-4).

Now, admittedly, there are a lot of assumptions made in this thread, few have been validated. And so it makes it kind of hard to actually answer the original poster of this thread, without speculating *a lot*.

On the topic of Sun vs Shinji for example. I remember having read from Terry that in his opinion, Sun was not displaying a TI stroke. And quite frankly, based on the little that I know about TI, it is very true. Whilst he clearly displays TI-like characteristics, one of the major differences is that Shinji / Terry's catch position remain accessible to most mortals. Sun's catch position (upper arm parallel to the surface, very high elbow) is not. On this topic, like I said earlier, so many swimmers/bloggers *think* they bend it EVF or exaggerated high elbow etc, whilst in reality, they can barely reach 8-4, which made me propose that this is not as much a matter of choice, as it is a matter of actually being able to *do* it.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-02-2012 at 08:38 PM.
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