Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-28-2012
rwilkes rwilkes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 73
rwilkes
Default

Coach Paul, are you saying that we need to just "pull" in our lower ab muscles, and keep them pulled in when driving the hips up and down ??? Or do we tilt the pelvis inward ??

Sorry for the daft question, but I am having difficulty in propulsion on swing switch ( and whole stroke). I don't get that " kick" forward like on the DVD when doing this drill !!

Regards

Russ
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-28-2012
tomoy tomoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 585
tomoy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachPaulB View Post
You can have many idiosyncrasies in your stroke like Natlie Coughlin's windmill arm, but if your core is rock solid and in sync then you have a real foundation to work on the fine tuning of recovery, catch, spear etc.
Great post - fully agree with the Chi Running reference and try to use their metaphor of a needle in cotton as a focal point when swimming (spinal column in laser beam alignment).

OT: I always wondered about Natalie Coughlin's recovery. How she could make that work. A lot of young sprinters do that too. Sad she didn't make any finals this year in London.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-29-2012
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

This is absolutely fascinating, thanks to CoachPaulB for that post.

As per my post some weeks ago, I've been working on correcting APT - anterior pelvic tilt - to gain better standing posture, but was oblivious to its impact on energy transmission up the body. So, this is a revelation.

I find it takes some practise to tilt the pelvis into a more neutral position without activating the glutes, which I find has the effect of pulling your legs down to the bottom of the pool.

So, this presumably kills stone dead the research of the guy we discussed recently - the one who wears funny spinning hats in youtube vids, sorry I can't remember his name - who advocates strongly arching the back to pull the legs up?

And also, why isn't this sort of information (re: pelvic tilt) in the mainstream path of the TI teaching materials? It's not a "difficult" concept.

Last edited by bx : 08-29-2012 at 12:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-29-2012
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post

So, this presumably kills stone dead the research of the guy we discussed recently - the one who wears funny spinning hats in youtube vids, sorry I can't remember his name - who advocates strongly arching the back to pull the legs up?
Don't know if I'd be so quick to dismiss J. Shaules. Allegedly he was studying the subject in depth. Perhaps you should write him to ask what conclusion he drew about that advice, and report it here.

He has a channel on YouTube.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-29-2012
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by borate View Post
Don't know if I'd be so quick to dismiss J. Shaules. Allegedly he was studying the subject in depth. Perhaps you should write him to ask what conclusion he drew about that advice, and report it here.

He has a channel on YouTube.
That's a great idea, and I have done just that. I certainly do not dismiss anything he says, but I'm feeling really confused about how the pelvis should be held in freestyle. As I see it we seem to have either:

Arch back, anterior pelvic tilt = helps raise legs

or

Flattened back, neutral pelvis = better energy transfer up the body

Looking forward to any reply from Jamie Shaules!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-29-2012
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
Arch back, anterior pelvic tilt = helps raise legs

or

Flattened back, neutral pelvis = better energy transfer up the body

Looking forward to any reply from Jamie Shaules!
After considerable debate in earlier threads, the consensus (as I recall) was to hold enough core tension to keep the back relatively straight. If Jamie replies, it will be enlightening to learn the result of his experimentation.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-30-2012
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by borate View Post
After considerable debate in earlier threads, the consensus (as I recall) was to hold enough core tension to keep the back relatively straight. If Jamie replies, it will be enlightening to learn the result of his experimentation.
Jamie Shaules kindly replied; I'm sure he won't object to me quoting it here.

Quote:
We have begun to discuss the question among ourselves and we will get back to you. We have an open mind and have changed our ideas more than once. After all, we are all here for the same thing.... having fun!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-30-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

I follow his works quite closely. They're worth the time.

So far, I find that nothing that he says is entirely wrong, but it's not entirely right neither. The gentleman writes and demonstrates for and using subjects that fit his theories. Anyway.. I wish I could send him a few of my subjects and see if his theories work as well (with a natural sinker for instance, ie one that has negative buoyancy no matter the position, lungs full of air)...

What I truly dislike though about this researcher is that he never fails to discredit other school of thoughts, other mentras. If the press your chest down mentra works with some, I find it sad that he would discredit this.

This topic is fairly new. We've believed over time that the leg recovery preceding the downbeat was just, merely a recovery phase. I agree with him, I don't think it is. I made huge discoveries as to the importance of the leg recovery applied to fly.

Applied to Crawl, it's funny that I tripped on this thread because I'm back from a 90min session with a sound swimmer, and at the end my recommendation to him was:

"I find your legs are a little lower than they could be, despite your excellent kick. You hold a constant level of flexion at the hips (that is, the leg never really seem to get straight and perfectly aligned with the body). Therefore I think you should work on learning to engage the muscles at the back of the leg"

But, I also added, and this is where I'd appreciate a notice on Shaules' clip:

"This could be due to hip flexors that are just to tight, to short"

I don't think it's a good idea to ask someone to induce any tension at the lowerback/glute/hamstrings level if the hip flexors are too tight. It's in fact, completely ridiculous.

This is why I feel that nothing about what Shaules' works is entirely wrong, but nothing is entirely right neither. There's always something very very important missing. In this case, it's this mention about the importance of maintaining decent hip flexors flexibility, for the legs to end up being aligned with the body.

In this other clip I created a thread about lately, on buoyancy, he completely dismissed all these swimmers that will never ever be able to float horizontally at the surface, still. This is why I mention that he seems to work with and for subjects that fit his theories. I would appreciate more nuances.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-30-2012 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-31-2012
tomoy tomoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 585
tomoy
Default

I went to the pool today thinking I'd focus on hip-drive. What I came away with though was a new and deep respect for the core stabilizers.

I was doing a series of 100Y with various tempos. Settled at 1.2s as a good working point to push for low SPLs then relaxed-but-quick. Most of my 100's clocked in at 1'40" (yeah, not that quick, but hey, it's what I've got :-)

I remembered Terry's youtube talks when he talked about the instant he switches from relaxation, to flexing and linking all the muscles from his toe to the opposite spear hand especially including the core stabilizers.

So focusing on just that, putting elbow recovery and spear angle out of mind, boom, 1'35"! Early that session, I had to set 1.05s on the TT to hit that time.

It makes sense I guess, a lot of my pull was probably spent contorting my body into some form of S or C shape (from above) wiggling my body in various directions. When the moment of snap occurred though, forcing my body to be a solid stick in the water means all the force directed more towards forward motion.

I think I'll be working on this for months, at all tempos. Just keeping straight in the water and firing those muscles as briefly as necessary so the rest of the time I can relax.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-31-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rio, Wisconsin
Posts: 564
westyswoods
Default Food for thought.

I found the following quote by Charles very interesting and informative. I have been wondering if this is not one of the causes for hamstring cramps during long periods of OW swims. Fact is my hip flexors are extremely tight, with weak gluts and hamstrings, especially on the left side which is more prone to cramping

"I don't think it's a good idea to ask someone to induce any tension at the lowerback/glute/hamstrings level if the hip flexors are too tight. It's in fact, completely ridiculous."

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.