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  #41  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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The bit you emboldened Sclim is the core of the yoga practice I was taught.

One thing I love about the winter here is the learning opportunity it provides for walking. The slippery and uneven tracks are also only just wide enough to stand with feet together but at least as deep. When my balance is good, and I slip, I have noticed that I have no reflex action. I simply slide a bit and continue. It's a bit surreal. On the other hand, when my balance is poor and I slip my reflex snaps in as soon as my body senses there's a threat of falling. Both reactions are faster than my thought and I have no control over either.

I think despite everything that there are similar reactions swimming in water. Perhaps it is the memories of those gene sequences we have in common with our watery past. It seems to me that they're just harder to enable.

There have been one or two occasions when, focusing so exclusively on this damn arm movement thing of mine, that my breathing became so good that I suddenly became afraid that I might "forget" that I was moving my head under the water and breathe in! It's hard to get to that level of trust and stay there. Makes thinking about your footfall running downstairs seem like a breeze!

Odd. I seem to have brought the thread back on topic. Most unintended. LoL
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  #42  
Old 01-27-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
The bit you emboldened Sclim is the core of the yoga practice I was taught.
I believe the usual term for converting text to heavy font is "bolded".

"Emboldened" is gradually what I am becoming by digesting all this brilliant and sage reflection and advice from people I haven't even met (yet) in real life!! :-)

Last edited by sclim : 01-27-2015 at 06:42 PM.
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  #43  
Old 01-27-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Shinji, Such a beautiful photo!

I don't think I have ever been fast enough, so what advice would you give to those of us stuck at paces over 2:00 /100m and with poor acceleration?
Based on your swim, it seems timing of putting your energy is 0.05 second earlier than it should be. It might be a better idea to create another thread since it is off the topic of this thread.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
Based on your swim, it seems timing of putting your energy is 0.05 second earlier than it should be. It might be a better idea to create another thread since it is off the topic of this thread.
As you suggested I have started a new thread and hope you can find time to clarify more there.

Thank you for your help.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #45  
Old 01-30-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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The astounding thing is that we recognize ourselves at a deep level and that connection generates a change process independent of cognition. The new perception becomes incorporated with those internally generated.
@Talvi: After mulling it over for days, I finally got it! Propriocipio ergo sum!
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  #46  
Old 01-30-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Propriocipio ergo sum!

Exactly! Very well put. I will borrow that phrase for my modicum opus. Isn't cognition after all only a form of proprioception?

Einstein's letter to Study which in a way addresses this, ends with the parenthetical statement: "Real and unreal seem to me to be like right and left". I'm printing a teeshirt that reads: "If reality were right, then unreality would be left."

In the words of that other great philosopher, Groucho Marx: "Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.".

Don't you just love it when things come together! :D
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 01-30-2015 at 09:44 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-30-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Exactly! Very well put. I will borrow that phrase for my modicum opus. Isn't cognition after all only a form of proprioception?

Einstein's letter to Study which in a way addresses this, ends with the parenthetical statement: "Real and unreal seem to me to be like right and left". I'm printing a teeshirt that reads: "If reality were right, then unreality would be left."

In the words of that other great philosopher, Groucho Marx: "Outside of a dog a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.".

Don't you just love it when things come together! :D
@Talvi: You have an odd and very disturbing world view -- you're just my kind of fellow traveller!

Seriously, the Cogito ergo sum that was the starting point for my tweak usually implies some logical thought process, algebraic, perhaps, but no direct passion or sensation, merely dealing with the meaning and logical outcome that these sensation provide data for.

Proprioception is the direct input of body position data, and the rapid correct response through training happens ideally at the cerebellar and motor cortex level and only comes back to the conscious level after the fact.

I would reverse the priority of your classification -- the data provided by proprioception is used in cognition; I don't think that cognition can be classified as being a form of proprioception. In fact, in my view cognition and proprioception are two different mental processes that can occur simultaneously, and may influence one another, but are two parallel streams that, like all parallel streams never merge, i.e. one becoming the other.

The shift that you describe is merely the perception of our movements, maybe at some fundamental level, our very being, shifting from the cognitive (logical) to the proprioceptive. Very profound, but still not enough to justify the idea that cognition and proprioception have become one (or that either cognition or proprioception alone have become extinguished in the process.)
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  #48  
Old 01-31-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
@Talvi: You have an odd and very disturbing world view -- you're just my kind of fellow traveller!

Seriously, the Cogito ergo sum that was the starting point for my tweak usually implies some logical thought process, algebraic, perhaps, but no direct passion or sensation, merely dealing with the meaning and logical outcome that these sensation provide data for.

Proprioception is the direct input of body position data, and the rapid correct response through training happens ideally at the cerebellar and motor cortex level and only comes back to the conscious level after the fact.

I would reverse the priority of your classification -- the data provided by proprioception is used in cognition; I don't think that cognition can be classified as being a form of proprioception. In fact, in my view cognition and proprioception are two different mental processes that can occur simultaneously, and may influence one another, but are two parallel streams that, like all parallel streams never merge, i.e. one becoming the other.

The shift that you describe is merely the perception of our movements, maybe at some fundamental level, our very being, shifting from the cognitive (logical) to the proprioceptive. Very profound, but still not enough to justify the idea that cognition and proprioception have become one (or that either cognition or proprioception alone have become extinguished in the process.)
I was being serious Sclim. There is a long tradition of using words against themselves in order to arrive at an understanding of truth. And the intention is to cause a particular form of disturbance.

Your definitions are those of the reductionist linguistic frame you choose. That such definitions may or may not be helpful is a point that Einstein's letter to Study addresses. I am not a reductionist. I see systems.

Cognition and proprioception are what they have always been. We must not conflate the label for that we seek to label. Equally that which is being labelled is only something we perceive, and this is perception is merely an aspect of that, connected to it in some way but no more.

The words are English ones, and English only one of a myriad of perceptual frameworks available to us, not the language of God. The terms themselves date back between 300 and 700 years, and from then until now, as with all such words, scientists and others hotly debate their meaning. So, while I may justly be accused of bending meanings such an accusation would need to rest on there existing a singular, fixed and absolute reference frame,and such a frame does not exist.

This frame is the holy grail of what might be called scientific philosophy and the struggle to find it rages on unquenchably in university bars throughout the world. It remains quite precisely as elusive and illusive as it will always be, the Snark of our intellectual world.

Sckim I think we must leave such "serious" debate for a more appropraite venue. A large bottle of malt springs to mind!
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #49  
Old 01-31-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Sckim I think we must leave such "serious" debate for a more appropraite venue. A large bottle of malt springs to mind!
Capital Suggestion! Excuse me ...(scurrying away to find my large bottle)... a Toast to You, Sir :-)
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