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  #41  
Old 11-23-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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For anyone that has ever tried using a power drill to mix something thick like concrete or tile adhesive then you understand that as you turn the power (speed) of the drill up you start to feel the drill pushing against you to escape.

To keep everything in the bucket and mixing then you have to engage stabilising muscles on the drill.

it's the same in swimming when picking up the stroke rate.

2 ways to get used to the feeling of stroke rate that have worked for me.

1. perform 25m repeats with 6-8 strokes between breaths and double the stroke time when rolling to breath for relaxation.

e.g. tt@1.0 push off as normal and breathe, take 8 strokes with head down concentrating on rhythm, then roll to side and breath for 2 or 3 beeps, then repeat until you finish the 25m. Recover fully and repeat.

2. If the higher SR is still a challenge with the head straight down in the water then there is a good chance there is a catch bottleneck in your stroke timing with the spearing arm locking out and not being ready to form a catch.

Closed fist version of the above is a good drill for this. it's works like reducing the size of your mixing paddle in the drill analogy.

I've signed up for a 12 day intense swim program with the local tri group and after 3 days I'm knocking on the door of my 50 and 200m pb's so swimming has got exciting again.
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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The analogies keep getting stranger and stranger ;-).

Another one that cmes to mind>
When I want to improve (or disturb it as little as possible) my balance with my pull I probabaly do something that has to do with the coaches phrase: Catch deep, pull shallow.
Imagine yu are lying face down on the mud and you are digging a (shallow angled)) hole with your arms. Its already a fairly deep hole and you have to almost stretch out to scrape the dirt and the water with your fingers from the underside of the hole wall toward you.
That movement looks a bit like a high elbow catch.
You are pulling the handfull of mud up and backward, and therfore the front of the body down and forward.
Your chest is pulled deeper in the mud while your hand is digging mud up out of the hole.
Thats how I feel your pull can aid your balance.
Dig deep, pull shallow.

You probable not really digging water up, but if you are used to pushing water down at the front, pulling water backwards feels like pulling water up.
Just like swimming level feels like swimming downhill if you are used to swimming uphill.

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index....rwater-camera/

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-23-2014 at 11:13 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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@Zenturtle: just so I understand what you are trying to achieve, you are trying not to perpetuate the fault of pushing down with your leading hand as it pulls. So the new feeling of catch deep pull shallow has the hand scooping up the dirt from the bottom of the pit, and thus up and backward, pulling the body down and forward.

Is this downward pull on the body merely a perception (is this what you mean in the last paragraph), or is it actually pulled down? If it is actual, why would this help, as opposed to an elevation-neutral directly forward (balanced) pull parallel to the direction of intended travel?
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I am almost sure its more a feeling instead of the actual mechanics
90% of the swimmers are pushing down at the front, so if you stop doing that it feels like the front is sinking down and you are dredging water up.
In your case it could give trouble breathing but you could try it with your snorkel,.
You dont want to pull water up from under the chest. but there is a slight upward angled movement from the start of the pull to the push transition point.
Priority is to keep the hand and forearm connected and almost inline, so dont skoop only with a cupped hand.
The feeling will only lead to a slightly higher elbow for most I think.

How to pull to not disturb balance,
In theory the force vectro line from the pull should go through the balance pivot point to not disturb balance or introduce sideways steering effects.
If thats the case, the moment around the pivot point is zero, because the distance between the force line and the pivot point is zero,
So in theory the force should be more or less going through the belly bottun position.
Even a straight back pull will result in a pivoting torque that lifts the front and lowers the rear.
Its about the same what happens with an accelerating car,
The front lifts, the rear lowers, even when the force between tyre and road is directed straight back.
The shoulder is the axis of the wheel, the hand in the water is the tyre on the road.
http://web.mit.edu/4.441/1_lectures/..._lecture5.html

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-24-2014 at 10:05 PM.
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  #45  
Old 11-25-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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OK, got the idea. Will try tomorrow in pool.
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  #46  
Old 11-30-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Hello Zenturtle,

your pictures for imagination are really great! (Are you an artist for photographs or paintings?)
Werner,
Since you asked, some shameless self promotion,. There is still some stuff at flick from my interested in photo days, a few years ago. Lost the Flickr code to get acces.
If interested, google zanzinizabor
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

thank you. Great! I do like the greyshaded most, my wife the cats...

BTW your last catch deep pull shallow seems right, but that mud-thing produces some forces directed not exactly backward, and I wan't like to realize how it feels lying in slippery mud while swimming. :-)

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Think I'll put all the hints from this thread into a small some weeks program for next year.
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  #48  
Old 12-07-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Hi Werner, my 2c

I have a sense of griplessness and have been struggling with it for over a year. As a sub 2:00-er (my best is just shy of 50s for 50m!) I suspect that as ZT says this is pretty much the situation at slow speeds. However, and as both Danny and ZT say I believe the key to the pull lies is in the rotation. It's the timing of it that is the most important, just as it is when on a swing.

My advice is to forget about the pull and place your focus on the rotation. For me, focus on core drive etc only resulted in a lot of extra energy. Instead I am finding that focusing on the timing of the kick and spear is a better way to get to the same thing. YangS posted a Popov video whcih shows this timing of kick and spear.

You suggested to me that the moment before the hand entered the water was a good time to slow a stroke back down that had been speeded up by eliminating the pause at the hip. It was a great idea and now I have found that this moment just before hand entry seems to be the perfect moment for the kick to fire.

If then the spear is patient and relaxed, and if it then relaxes further, curling fingertips first into the catch, then if the rotation has been initiated the pull timing seems to start to look after itself.

I imagine that if the timing is right, and is kept right, then the application of power will then fit in, just as it does when sitting on a swing, or when rowing a boat or when ....
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 12-07-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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  #49  
Old 12-07-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I imagine that if the timing is right, and is kept right, then the application of power will then fit in, just as it does when sitting on a swing, or when rowing a boat or when ....
the application of power will then fit in, I like that. The stroking arm is a reaction to the force you are providing on the other side (spear and rotation), it just happens in opposite.

Spear gently with easy rotation and the pull arm moves gently through the water.

Spear with purpose and snap and the pull arm bolts back to the pocket.
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  #50  
Old 12-07-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Talvi, hallo Andy,

there are too many variables to identify where my hooks clearly. Hope I'll can seperate some of them when trying my grip-special-program which has to wait before being "designed" around Christmas...

My last pooltime last week showed two perhaps randomly points (now once more a hard cold caught me and pushes me away from pool):

- When going down in my ATP (started 1.3s up to 1.6s) at 1.24s and 1.2s the growing from 42SPL to 45SPL happened as usual but at 1.14s 41SPL were enough, then at 1.10s it rushed up to 47SPL again. Talvi will know it: I don't have any idea what happened. (LCM)

- Swam a lap with as fast rhythmus as possible but focused (if it can be called so at this frequenz) in lowest possible force into stroke. Hmmm... 50SPL (green zone's upper Limit 44SPL...) around 50s, but I was not as winded as usual when swimming subjective highest speed.

Don't know what or if anything has to be taken from that. More interesting things to explore.

Best regards,
Werner
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