Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-13-2011
dobarton dobarton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 61
dobarton
Default Stroke rate = speed, part deuce

So, it was asked a few weeks back about stroke rate being the primary component of speed. This has bugged me ever since because as far as I can tell, Terry continues to be a proponent of balance and streamline creating speed if constantly focused on.
In that vein, I had posted a SR vs SPL table earlier last week.
Today, I did some timed efforts using the TT. I am not a particular strong swimmer. I am an adult-onset swimmer. I've only been swimming about 2 years using TI to the best of my un-trained ability. I was somewhat surprised by the results. All interval counts include turns in a 25 meter pool.
With the TT set at 1.05, it took 78 intervals to finish 100 meters (1:22)
With the TT set at 1.00, it took 83 intervals to finish 100 meters (1:23)
With the TT set at 0.95, it took 88 intervals to finish 100 meters (1:23.6).
I lost quite a bit of efficiency by trying to stroke faster. I may also have been becoming tired (why is it that if our SPL remains the same, we become significantly more tired by stroking just a tiny bit faster?)

As I experiment more with the TT and constantly strive to improve stroke efficiency, I am finding more and more that stroke efficiency trumps stroke rate for improving speed. Maybe it's because I'm old and will probably never finish 100 meters with a stroke rate of 0.70?

Thanks for this wonderful discussion board where we can discuss such issues in a constructive way!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-13-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobarton View Post
As I experiment more with the TT and constantly strive to improve stroke efficiency, I am finding more and more that stroke efficiency trumps stroke rate for improving speed. Maybe it's because I'm old and will probably never finish 100 meters with a stroke rate of 0.70?
yep, stroke efficiency can decrease if you're not conditioned to maintain efficiency at high stroke rates. so i would also look at this not as a barrier but as a goal setting exercise: how can i maintain efficiency, as i inch stroke rate higher and higher?

this means an ordered approach to using the TT as a tool, along with stroke counting and timing the lengths/laps. i drill all the time with the TT and work on those things I find get messy as my tempo rises. when i find the threshold tempo of when some particular aspect gets messy, I back off and re-approach that tempo focusing on that aspect in drilling alongside a gradual increase in tempo via the TT.

the clue is when your strokes per length jumps after you increase the tempo by some amount. then you should reduce tempo and try to work on those aspects of form that are deteriorating upon tempo increases.

i wouldn't sell yourself short on any goal. just because you can't do it now doesn't mean you can't work yourself up to it. i find that higher tempos are best approached as a neuromuscular exercise, meaning conditioning the nervous system to perform the action flawlessly and with the least amount of energy and mindlessly perfect each time, and not a muscle/endurance exercise, which means that you are using force to swing your arms faster which will ultimately end up wiping yourself out and watching your form disappear...

keep us posted on your quest for 0.70 seconds tempo!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-14-2011
HandsHeal HandsHeal is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sebastian, Flardy, USA
Posts: 31
HandsHeal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobarton View Post
I am finding more and more that stroke efficiency trumps stroke rate for improving speed. !
I think the sea green part of your statement is The Mantra of TI'ers. Let us count the ways that Coach Terry has worded our Mantra... ah, so many! I like your word, "trumps."

Whatever age your body is - those are respectable final times for 100m! The line formed by the data you gave suggests that you try some longer tempo times. You're improving your final time by about 1.0sec/100m per +0.05sec on the TT. So, with a 1.30sec TT, you might expect your 100m finish time to be like, 1:17!

Furthermore, your SPL is improving by better than a stroke per length per +0.05 on the TT.

I believe you will find your best 100m time at a significantly longer TT time (like 1:30s), then you can mindfully work toward shorter TT values, as dshen so aptly suggests.

Happy Strokes!

Last edited by HandsHeal : 07-14-2011 at 02:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-15-2011
TIJoe TIJoe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 57
TIJoe
Default

Dobarton, I totally agree with HandsHeal. These are really respectable 100m speed for an adult onset swimmer. You seem to have the potential to approach 1 minute mark for 100m swimming. You are swimming very fast for such a slow tempo.

But as you are saying, increasing tempo right now is decreasing your speed. Since you practice TI, I assume you are doing front quadrant stroke timing and perhaps, like majority of TI swimmers' videos I have seen (including myself), may have a bit too much overlapping at the front that approches catch up strokes. For this kind of stroke timing, you cannot have a very high tempo as you will be hurrying everything (recovery, catch, pull etc.).
Take a look at this:

http://www.svl.ch/FreestyleStrokeTiming/

If you change your stroke timing closer to the classical one, even if you do the recovery etc. with the same speed, you will have increased your tempo. This style will tire your out more easily for sure, but for sprinting, that is what is needed to achieve high speed. You might be surprised to see that Popov actually used a rotary style of stroke timing as it is at the opposite spectrum of TI stroke. Yet, Popov was one of the original inspiration of TI.
Nevertheless, for longer distance swimming, front quadrant style is definitely prefered so long as you don't go to the extreme to make it close to a catch up timing.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-22-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default Sr = Speed

Dobarton,

Thank you for raising this important point.
When I look at the original thread and your post, I am more and more convinced that SR is directly related to SPEED.

Let's assume your swimming is like a CAR with 5 gears. As you change Gear (Increase SR) you go faster. At this time, in your case, SR=1.05 could be your GEAR 5 for maximum speed. May be SR=1.2 is Gear 4... and SR=1.5 is Gear 1.

My assumption is that when we swim we try to maintain all other parameters fixed no matter how fast we stroke:
1. We try to keep balance
2. We stay streamlined
3. We try to have a good catch
4. We try to have as much stroke lenght as possible...

Basically the only 2 things we can do to increase speed, everything else staying the same, is increase Stroke Rate or kick faster.

What are practical and common Stroke Rates?

By reading the TI FORUM it seems that SR=1.0-1.1 is a good range for good long distance TI Swimmers like Dave and Terry. Shinji strokes very nicely at SR=1.3-1.4. Anythink slower that SR=1.5 is considered too slow except for technique/drills sessions.

NOTE: In my daughter's swimming club they all race at SR=0.70-0.90 but those are short to mid distance traditional swimmers....

ALEX
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-22-2011
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rio, Wisconsin
Posts: 564
westyswoods
Default SR/Pace

Alex, I find your analysis to be spot on, except the kick faster portion. This may work for short distances, although I don't believe an increased kick rate will work for longer stretches. If anything it will tire you more quickly for the benefit gained.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-28-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
Alex, I find your analysis to be spot on, except the kick faster portion. This may work for short distances, although I don't believe an increased kick rate will work for longer stretches. If anything it will tire you more quickly for the benefit gained.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
Yes Westy, I was thinking about the kick as a final Sprint strategy only.

By the way, talking about SR = Speed...

I saw a Triathlete swimming the other day (he had an IM cap on) with a SR=0.85 and virtually no kicking (not even a 2BK). His Stroke count was 27 strokes per LAP (25yds) taking about 25 seconds.

I felt really sorry for the guy. If SR=Speed.... how can this guy possibly swim faster?

I do not know if he was intentionally not kicking but that clearly made him swim "Uphill" and caused that really low Stroke Lenght.

ALEX
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-29-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Check this video out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyofiWUw6ZY

Look at Sun in lane 4's SR. It's obvious that his SR is lower than the swimmers in other lanes. But yet he wins!

He is able to maintain or increase his SL at that SR, and/or those other swimmers, in their attempt to swim faster, lose efficiency by thinking that they can raise their SR and go faster, but in fact they increase their speed only minutely as their efficiency drops considerably.

The other day I was swimming a long workout of 4000m and started at a tempo of 1.15 for the first third of distance, then dropped that to 1.10, and then finally did the last few 200s at descending by .02 down to 1.04. When I look at my data (collected via my Finis Swimsense), I find that my swim times were actually faster for the 1.15 and 1.10s tempos than at <1.10s, the max speed being at 1.10s tempo! As I descended to faster tempos of <1.10s, I lost efficiency big time and my length times were increased even as I tried to keep up with the tempo trainer's beeps.

Here, I can see that my goal is now to figure out how to maintain SL as my stroke rate increases in tempo and my breakpoint is now about 1.10s.

Another good day of data analysis on a workout with the tempo trainer!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-29-2011
Stijn Stijn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 32
Stijn
Default Sun vs. Cochrane

That 800m freestyle race is really worth looking at: (check the link in dshen's message just above) [Edit by Stijn: Sun's performance has also been commented in this thread]

Take, for example, the 4th lap of the race.
Sun (winner, lane 4) vs. Cochrane (second, lane 3)

SPL: 28 vs. 36 (final lap: 34 vs. 40)
SR: 0.9' vs. 0.7' (roughly: based on a rough timing between the start of the first stroke and the end of the last (26''))

Obviously, both swimmers are extraordinary fast, though again, the slow(er) stroker, or probably better: the fewer stroker, wins. Again a plea for trying to maintain momentum, that is, SPL when going for faster SR's.

Best of laps,
Stijn

Last edited by Stijn : 07-29-2011 at 09:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.