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  #1  
Old 03-05-2011
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Default How do you get your hips around?

I keep coming back to this question of how to get my hips around from “rotated just enough?” It seems this is an important question, since the TI stroke is a hip driven one and not shoulder driven.

The downward motion of the leg flick certainly finishes it off, but it can’t start it off since it’s hard to kick down with the body rotated. I don’t think it’s the spearing of the arm, because it seems the kick would happen too late if you waited for the shoulders and hips to level off.

I think the rotation must be initiated by a combination of contracting and releasing core muscles along with the draw back of bottom leg for a two beat kick, but it never quite “feels” right.

Anyone have any suggestions?
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Old 03-05-2011
flppr flppr is offline
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With my stroke, it feels as though gravity starts the rotation by pulling the recovery arm down, the kick is an active mover in mid-rotation, and core muscle contraction feels most active moving toward terminal rotation.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
I keep coming back to this question of how to get my hips around from “rotated just enough?” It seems this is an important question, since the TI stroke is a hip driven one and not shoulder driven.

The downward motion of the leg flick certainly finishes it off, but it can’t start it off since it’s hard to kick down with the body rotated. I don’t think it’s the spearing of the arm, because it seems the kick would happen too late if you waited for the shoulders and hips to level off.

I think the rotation must be initiated by a combination of contracting and releasing core muscles along with the draw back of bottom leg for a two beat kick, but it never quite “feels” right.

Anyone have any suggestions?
The leg of the bottom hip should "float" upwards as the body rotates to that side, which place the lower leg already "drawn back" in preparation for the kick.

Immediately after your kick, the foot of the kicking leg will end up with the foot closer to the bottom of the pool, and the hip it is connected to being the higher hip. E.g. if you are on yoru right side, right arm extended, and getting ready to spear to the left...your right hip will be "on the bottom" with yoru right leg extended with the right foot already nearer to the surface. The right leg downbeats with the root foot going towards toe bottom of the pool, the right hip rotating upwards as the body roates to the left side. While this is happening, the left leg responds by moving opposite the right leg...as the right leg goes down, the left leg goes up. The attached hips are doing the opposite. AS the right leg kicks and the foot goes down, the right hip comes up...and the left hip goes down.

Now you are all set for the next kick.

I also agree with the above poster that the weight of the recovering arm helps ti initiate rotation with gravity pulling you into the beginning of the stroke.

Trying to explain it in words seems to be making it more complicated...it's late. Hope I've helped.
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  #4  
Old 03-06-2011
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
With my stroke, it feels as though gravity starts the rotation by pulling the recovery arm down, the kick is an active mover in mid-rotation, and core muscle contraction feels most active moving toward terminal rotation.
I must say flppr, you are concise and I alway value your comments. Besides gravity on the recovery arm, I also feel gravity pulling my hip down on the beginning of the hip rotation. Maybe that's where I feel the release of the core muscles -- to let gravity take over. It just seems like there has to be a better way to get the hip rotation going -- relying on the recovery arm to start the rotation almost seems like the kick is too late, but then maybe my timing is off (?).
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2011
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
The leg of the bottom hip should "float" upwards as the body rotates to that side, which place the lower leg already "drawn back" in preparation for the kick.

Immediately after your kick, the foot of the kicking leg will end up with the foot closer to the bottom of the pool, and the hip it is connected to being the higher hip. E.g. if you are on yoru right side, right arm extended, and getting ready to spear to the left...your right hip will be "on the bottom" with yoru right leg extended with the right foot already nearer to the surface. The right leg downbeats with the root foot going towards toe bottom of the pool, the right hip rotating upwards as the body roates to the left side. While this is happening, the left leg responds by moving opposite the right leg...as the right leg goes down, the left leg goes up. The attached hips are doing the opposite. AS the right leg kicks and the foot goes down, the right hip comes up...and the left hip goes down.

Now you are all set for the next kick.

I also agree with the above poster that the weight of the recovering arm helps ti initiate rotation with gravity pulling you into the beginning of the stroke.

Trying to explain it in words seems to be making it more complicated...it's late. Hope I've helped.
Thanks CoachSuzanne. I had to read your response a couple of times, but I can follow it. As far as the initiation of the rotation, it sounds like your are sayings the back swing of the bottom leg, gravity, and the recovery arm all combine together to start the hip rotation going.
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  #6  
Old 03-06-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Thanks CoachSuzanne...it sounds like your are saying the back swing of the bottom leg, gravity, and the recovery arm all combine together to start the hip rotation going.
Suzanne's depiction is a good one - action/reaction (Newton's 3rd law)...

When a leg kicks downward, the hip on the same side is thrust upwards.
The opposing hip is driven down as the leg on that side moves up. Rotation.

Simultaneously, the spearing arm reaches full extension.
Once you get the basic timing down try not to overthink the process; it's a fluid movement.

Last edited by borate : 03-06-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 03-06-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by borate View Post
Once you get the basic timing down try not to overthink the process; it's a fluid movement.
Yes, once I had coach Dave "clue me in" to the bottom hip's foot initiating the kick, it only took about 3 25's to "get it", and now I don't think about it at all, except when I'm working on tightening up the timing. But as far as how everything is connected, once you feel it, it should become fluid.

But drawing back the opposite foot isn't really part of it...the foot should already be in position. I admit that I don't always do this at least when I see video of myself, but I don't consciously draw the leg back, I just flick the foot as if I'm kicking a soccer ball
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #8  
Old 03-06-2011
dmbrudvig dmbrudvig is offline
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Default Heavy hips

I'd play with pretending you have a moveable weight in your hips. I tend to try to snap and think actually I'd be better off thinking about weight dropping from side to side. Of course your upper and lower ends are all tied to your middle. You can switch focus from feeling hand initiation to hip initiation to kick initiation. See how they inform each other. Get confused. Get unconfused. Swim and think. Swim and feel. You know the routine. Isn't it great?
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  #9  
Old 03-07-2011
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CoachKris CoachKris is offline
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once again I'm going to use my video to show you my point of view on that matter ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeBYur3k6_0

1 bottom leg flick initiate rotation
2 hips rotation
3 shoulders rotation
4 arm spears in

all this happens nearly simultaneously but if we are looking for chain that would take you through whole rotation thats the way I'm doing it ;)
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  #10  
Old 03-08-2011
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachKris View Post
once again I'm going to use my video to show you my point of view on that matter ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeBYur3k6_0

1 bottom leg flick initiate rotation
2 hips rotation
3 shoulders rotation
4 arm spears in

all this happens nearly simultaneously but if we are looking for chain that would take you through whole rotation thats the way I'm doing it ;)
Any suggestions on how to learn to kick like that?
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