Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 04-11-2018
Tom65 Tom65 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Tom65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John@NewPaltz View Post
Couple thoughts from my side:
1. In his "Ultra-efficient Freestyle" book, Terry wrote that spearing slightly downward will turn your arm into a "trim tab", helping to lift your legs and therefore reduce overall drag. While I'm having trouble believing the trim tab theory (trim tabs in boats only work, because a planing ride is much more energy efficient than a displacement ride, but a swimmer will probably never get into planing mode :-)), it definitely relies on the fact that the oncoming water hits the top of your arm, creating a downward force.
So, in this particular point, I need to disagree with Mushroomfloat. Terry's trim tab theory is actually actively making use of this effect (as I said, I'm undecided, whether or not it will provide a net gain in efficiency).

2. Talking head-to-toe balance: The physics behind it is relatively straight forward. Your center of buoyancy is pretty much in the center of your lungs (is that actually true?) whereas your center of gravity is some inches down towards your belly button. This creates a rotational force (maybe angular momentum is more accurate, I don't know) which is pulling down your legs.
The exact position and relative distance between those two points is different for every body. So, for the lady in the first video it seems to be sufficient to just bring her arms in front of her center of buoyancy to completely compensate the rotational force. For me and obviously for devadigs and Tom65, too, we need a little more "counter-weight".
One very simple way of achieving this is to lift your arms above the surface. The tiniest part of your hand above the water surface creates some "counter-weight" by an order of magnitude larger than if it was underneath the water surface. Another option would be to lift your head above the water surface (Yes, this really works! Lifting your head will press your lungs deeper under water and you'll be able to lift your feet to the surface).
Now, is this useful for swimming? Probably, no. But there is one element to it, that can certainly be useful: When recovering, you arm is above the surface, anyways. As soon as you bring this recovering arm in front of your center of buoyancy it will act as a counter-weight. Terry suggested an exercise where you "lift your hand over your ear" at the end of the recovery. If you try this exercise very slowly you will notice that it is creating a counter-momentum that will help you lift your legs (if you try this exercise too slowly, the recovering arm will push your head down so low that you can't breath anymore). So, if you aim for a slow recovery, aim for being slow towards the end of the recovery rather than the beginning (because in the beginning of the recovery your arm is pushing down your legs).

3. Altough I must condemn calling an argument BS, I also must agree with Tom65 to some extent: Based on a paper
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...2.sp006893/pdf
relaxed muscles have indeed a lower specific density than contracted muscles. However I made some calculations and came to the conclusion that the buoyancy of our limbs will change by less than 0.0002% if we relax them (if anybody wants to see my calculations, shoot me a message :-)). So, I agree with Tom65, relaxing them will not bring them (significantly) closer to the surface. Now, I also disagree with Tom65, because I believe that relaxing our limbs is essential for optimizing overall efficiency and also for improving sensational skills.

Man, that was a monster post. Sorry about that.
The head lift is a good one, contradicts what we so often hear. Of course lifting your head in the prone position needs a reasonable level of flexibility which is possibly why some people believe it sinks the legs. Talking stationary here.
The relaxed muscle thing for floating annoys me because it is so often pushed on to people learning to float on their back, yet they never get told to stretch out length ways and elevate their hands.

Last edited by Tom65 : 04-11-2018 at 12:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-11-2018
fatbob
 
Posts: n/a
Default That sinking feeling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Hello fatbob

I think i said this at the start of the thread but agian,

1. Get a pullbuoy with 3 bars of floatation or cut a big one down i use arena type C
2. Stick it between your legs and swim 2 lengths
3. The feeling you are looking for will become evident
4. The feeling is one of taughtness in the lower abdominal and glutes inner thighs etc,
****you want to rock around your pelvis skating from one edge to the other, and drive each edge towards the far end of the pool***** this is hip drive

You will get the feeling with the pullbouy you will not discover it without the pull buoy
if you dont have a pullbuoy then squeeze your legs together at the thighs and point your toes (like standing on extreme tiptoes)

This is what you need to discover or you will forever be a brick lol

On spearing optimal depth is 400mm below the surface (take a tape measure)

If the surface is 9am & 3pm
you want to spear to 8am & 4pm
not 7am & 5pm as oncoming water pressure will hit the tops of your arms and suck you down making breathing impossible when trying to reach air

Try my suggestion and report back :-)
I tried the exercise demonstrated in the first video and by Shinji. I am disappointed, but not very surprised, to report that there is no way on this earth that my legs will reach a horizontal position. If I raise my arms to the surface, stretch and "open the armpits", my legs don't really move at all and still hang at about 45 degrees. If I arch my back as far as I possibly can and try to lift the legs with every bit of strength I have got, they move a bit but still don't approach horizontal, and I started getting cramp in my quads.

I tried swimming with a float between my thighs (I have tried this before, which is what lead me to the realisation that my legs sink). I borrowed the float from the pool, I don't know what type it is or how many "bars" it has but it is a sort of figure-8 shape with about 5 coloured layers from what I remember. Using this is about the only way I can achieve a horizontal position in the water. I can sometimes get the desired feeling of driving the lead hand forward and cutting through the water, at least in one direction. As I said before there is a noticeable current in my local pool due to the circulation of water. Swimming with the current I can glide much better but swimming against it is still hard, even with the float. Obviously my stroke still needs a lot of work. But even if I know what I am aiming for, when I take the float away I am back to sinking.

How much does the kick contribute? I am trying to get the 2BK but my natural instinct is to kick on the same same as the spearing hand instead of the opposite side. It hard to work on the timing (slowly) because of the sinking legs. I tried practicing the kick timing while still using the float which is a little awkward and might encourage me to kick from the knee too much but it seemed like the only way to practice it without sinking.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-11-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello John@NewPaltz,

tried to send a private message (because I promised not to jump in here again...). You didn't allow in your profile... Might you please give me a way to send?

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
I tried the exercise demonstrated in the first video and by Shinji. I am disappointed, but not very surprised, to report that there is no way on this earth that my legs will reach a horizontal position. If I raise my arms to the surface, stretch and "open the armpits", my legs don't really move at all and still hang at about 45 degrees. If I arch my back as far as I possibly can and try to lift the legs with every bit of strength I have got, they move a bit but still don't approach horizontal, and I started getting cramp in my quads.

I tried swimming with a float between my thighs (I have tried this before, which is what lead me to the realisation that my legs sink). I borrowed the float from the pool, I don't know what type it is or how many "bars" it has but it is a sort of figure-8 shape with about 5 coloured layers from what I remember. Using this is about the only way I can achieve a horizontal position in the water. I can sometimes get the desired feeling of driving the lead hand forward and cutting through the water, at least in one direction. As I said before there is a noticeable current in my local pool due to the circulation of water. Swimming with the current I can glide much better but swimming against it is still hard, even with the float. Obviously my stroke still needs a lot of work. But even if I know what I am aiming for, when I take the float away I am back to sinking.

How much does the kick contribute? I am trying to get the 2BK but my natural instinct is to kick on the same same as the spearing hand instead of the opposite side. It hard to work on the timing (slowly) because of the sinking legs. I tried practicing the kick timing while still using the float which is a little awkward and might encourage me to kick from the knee too much but it seemed like the only way to practice it without sinking.
Ok so you got the feeling with the pullbouy thats good, but you need to transfer that over to swimming without it,
my guess is you are releasing the body profile and it is likley head position and the downward pressure on the breastbone

try all again but glue your chin to your chest, this is extreme but i'll wager your legs come up.
when you need to breathe roll to the side and look backwards towards your shoulder / under your armpit.
keep the chin tucked when returning face back down.

From here if sucessful you can then play about with slowing raising chin to a more neutral position and find the optimum balance and at what point you lose it and begin dragging again.

put arms as deep as you like i prefer just below lung level

also try and keep your big toes brushing against each other and point feet like a ballerina.

to kick with pullbuoy relax lower legs from knee down and you'll notice a flick down the leg originating at the hip caused by rotation this is a natural 2bk and will just appear naturally

be good to see if this works :-)
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

to add: if you try ir standing tuck your chin to chest
you should feel your lower back flatten out
then as you raise you chin back up slowly you will feel a taughness in the lower abdominals
like your spine is an elastic band and being stretched

this is the taughtness feeling and needs to be held to maintain a level body profile
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

its like a "tug" on the very tops of your thighs where they connect to the pelvis at the front
its subtle not extreme you want to maintain this subtle taughtness in stroke
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

when you got it swing your shoulders and see that the hips are connected to the shoulders

then let the tension go and see that the hips and shoulders are no longer in concert

This is about all i can do for you so if it doesnt work then i'm stumped.

Good luck anyway

Mushroomfloat
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-11-2018
fatbob
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Ok so you got the feeling with the pullbouy thats good, but you need to transfer that over to swimming without it,
my guess is you are releasing the body profile and it is likley head position and the downward pressure on the breastbone

try all again but glue your chin to your chest, this is extreme but i'll wager your legs come up.
when you need to breathe roll to the side and look backwards towards your shoulder / under your armpit.
keep the chin tucked when returning face back down.

From here if sucessful you can then play about with slowing raising chin to a more neutral position and find the optimum balance and at what point you lose it and begin dragging again.

put arms as deep as you like i prefer just below lung level

also try and keep your big toes brushing against each other and point feet like a ballerina.

to kick with pullbuoy relax lower legs from knee down and you'll notice a flick down the leg originating at the hip caused by rotation this is a natural 2bk and will just appear naturally

be good to see if this works :-)
Thanks. Plenty to work on! I don't think I can get to the pool again until next week so it will have to wait until then, after which I will report back.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-13-2018
John@NewPaltz
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Very quick comment on the "swimming with the current" thing: Your perception that swimming with the current is easier is totally right, but it is only a perception, because you're watching the floor of the pool. You're completely surrounded by the medium (water) in which you're swimming and therefore swimming with or against the current should not affect your successes and challenges. Otherwise swimming in an endless pool wouldn't work at all, because in an endless pool, your basically standing still. :-)
I know you could be nit-picky and say that strong currents are producing turbulences and waves which are not equivalent to swimming in still water. This is true and one of the reasons why an endless pool is not a perfect substitute. But I still believe that this effect is negligible in our case.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have a similar experience re current in my local pool, going up towards the deep end is noticably harder than coming back down to the shallow end

when i swim at another local pool on occasion it is neutral as in i feel as good going up as i do coming back down.

I started to think there was a current from the jets in the pool wall too.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.