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  #21  
Old 03-09-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Originally Posted by eganov View Post
I've always just been logically troubled by the "rotation driving propulsion" comparisons made to other sports. In every sport I can think of where engaging the core is critical to propulsion, that engagement is defined by the rotation of the hips (big muscles) in the same direction as whatever you are propelling. I see the value of rotation in swimming because it allows the shoulders to be positioned most effectively in the stroke, not for the propulsive reasons in other sports.
I don't see any difference, in principle or execution.
Golf - as the hip rotates first back, then forward, the arms come through, the club face hits the ball, the follow-through directs the energy down the fairway. If that golfer doesn't rotate, but just stands there, hips square to the ball, the movement of the shoulders (wind up) & the arms to make contact will still deliver energy to drive the ball, but not nearly as well as if the hips had rotated, too.
But any number of sports are the same - baseball, football, soccer, tennis, martial arts... at some point the core (hips) has to set up to rotate so some energy will connect to the arms/legs to deliver that energy somewhere. The arms & legs are the vehicles to direct that energy where the athlete wants it to go. The main difference in swimming is that this doesn't just happen once, it happens continuously & rhythmically. I think the only other difference might be that in most sports the "unleashed" energy is delivered to an object - mostly a ball - that goes somewhere. In swimming the energy is delivered to, then through, the hand/arm. Hmmm...
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  #22  
Old 03-09-2011
eganov eganov is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
I don't see any difference, in principle or execution.
Golf - as the hip rotates first back, then forward, the arms come through, the club face hits the ball, the follow-through directs the energy down the fairway. If that golfer doesn't rotate, but just stands there, hips square to the ball, the movement of the shoulders (wind up) & the arms to make contact will still deliver energy to drive the ball, but not nearly as well as if the hips had rotated, too.
But any number of sports are the same - baseball, football, soccer, tennis, martial arts... at some point the core (hips) has to set up to rotate so some energy will connect to the arms/legs to deliver that energy somewhere. The arms & legs are the vehicles to direct that energy where the athlete wants it to go. The main difference in swimming is that this doesn't just happen once, it happens continuously & rhythmically. I think the only other difference might be that in most sports the "unleashed" energy is delivered to an object - mostly a ball - that goes somewhere. In swimming the energy is delivered to, then through, the hand/arm. Hmmm...
I agree with all your sports analogies. Let's even include boxing where the fist is the object. In each of them the core, in fact the whole propulsion chain, is moving in the direction of the object you are moving - fist, ball, club, whatever.

I think the confusion comes in because all the other sports are done standing upright while swimming is done lying flat. Think of it this way, tip over all those other sports participants so they are lying flat in the water. When they rotate it is along the same axis as the swimmer. But when they propel, the object would go in the direction of the pool bottom - parallel to (or in the same direction as) the rotation. In swimming, we want the object (lead hand and body) to go towards the far pool wall - perpendicular to the rotation.

I'm agreeing in the importance of rotation, but it's for different reasons than commonly described.

Last edited by eganov : 03-09-2011 at 10:04 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-09-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Originally Posted by eganov View Post
I agree with all your sports analogies. Let's even include boxing where the fist is the object. In each of them the core, in fact the whole propulsion chain, is moving in the direction of the object you are moving - fist, ball, club, whatever.

I think the confusion comes in because all the other sports are done standing upright while swimming is done lying flat. Think of it this way, tip over all those other sports participants so they are lying flat in the water. When they rotate it is along the same axis as the swimmer. But when they propel, the object would go in the direction of the pool bottom - parallel to (or in the same direction as) the rotation. In swimming, we want the object (lead hand and body) to go towards the far pool wall - perpendicular to the rotation.

I'm agreeing in the importance of rotation, but it's for different reasons than commonly described.
The only real difference I can see is what gets the whole chain of events going. With land based rotation the feet are connected to the ground which allows the core to rotate. In the water, with no terra firma to connect to, a correctly timed kick provides the same connection to get rotation started.

How about an uppercut in boxing? The same principle applies to that as to lengthening in swimming - you have to (at least) use your shoulder, elbow & wrist to direct the appendage where you want to deliver the energy.
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  #24  
Old 03-10-2011
aquarius aquarius is offline
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The big difference with tennis or golf, for instance, is that in both of these sports the rotation has a component going where you want the ball to go. In swimming, there is no forward component in the rotation. To compare, rotate standing on the ground, and there will be no component tending to lift you from the ground. This is very elementary physics.

You can also compare by hitting a tennis ball only with rotation, and it will go somewhere in the right direction. Try swimming with only rotation, and it will get you nowhere.

Not only rotation doesn't give any propulsion, but it costs some: part of the energy of the kick, instead of causing propulsion, causes rotation, as was explained in another thread.
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  #25  
Old 03-10-2011
Longrifle Longrifle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Not only rotation doesn't give any propulsion, but it costs some: part of the energy of the kick, instead of causing propulsion, causes rotation, as was explained in another thread.
Aquarius has some great insight, but I disagree with the thesis that rotation does not cause propulsion. To continue the sports analogy, if you boxed and threw a punch without rotating your hips, there would be little force applied. If you rotate your hips, then much more force is applied. If you pivot on your left foot while rotating your hips to throw a hard right punch, the force created will pull you off your feet if something does not slow your right arm down. (Hitting something or braking by changing your body's position).

IMO, the TI method utilizes this energy from the rotation to channel it through the shoulders, the arm and the hand to pull the body in that direction. The kick is the anchor point for this rotation to begin. The energy from the kick flows up and joins with the energy from the core's rotation and then joins the energy from the shoulder's rotation with the arm dropping down into the water to pull the body forward.

You can really see this by standing and doing the punching described above (1) without rotating the hips, (2) by rotating the hips but keeping both feet on the ground and (3) by pivoting on the left foot while throwing the punch.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2011
dmbrudvig dmbrudvig is offline
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Default Arm forward

You know--if you pretend you are shooting a bow and arrow and you do the necessary arm placement, you can feel how the "bow" arm can move forward--it's more an allowing of the arm to lengthen than a magical movement forward through the water. You stretch out further and feel your arm/shoulder/back tied together. Does that make sense? Words are tough! Feelings are what you can hang on to. Hopefully enough time and the right coaching now and again can help us all attach what we do to the right feelings and words. I don't know if the TI coaches will agree with me on this or not. Let's see!
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2011
LennartLarsson LennartLarsson is offline
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Hi
Nobody is commenting about the wetsuit and the impact it has on the swimming. With the help of the wetsuit she floats. Without one she would probably not be able do swim one lap. I agree, she has a long way to go before actually swimming.

Spring is coming. The ice is only 50 cm thick! :-)

Lennart
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2011
dpdavid dpdavid is offline
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Default What is the current philosophy?

I have been practicing "just enough" since I started TI. However, I bought the triatlon book and tehy keep talking about stacked shoulders and teh third eye. Which is right?
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2011
eganov eganov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longrifle View Post
Aquarius has some great insight, but I disagree with the thesis that rotation does not cause propulsion.
I'm kind of suprised by the general support of of rotation causing propulsion. I'm not a Kinesiologist (and even had to look up the spelling) but it is evident that for rotation to propel something, the rotation and the propulsion have to done in the same plane or parallel to one another - regardless of the sports example used.

It's even more complex than just a simple sports analogy because the details matter within the sport. As an example, in boxing you have to differentiate between the horizontal rotation of the core for a right cross and the vertical rotation of the core for an uppercut.

In swimming, if we're talking about the rotation of your body along the axis from the tip of your head out the bottom of you feet, than the rotation is towards the sides of the pool. That rotation is perpendicular to the direction you want to propel and does nothing to advance you in that direction.

That being said, rotation is still critical in swimming. First, it allows you to breathe easier in that you don't have to crank your head 90d. Second, it allows your recovery shoulder to more easily clear the water. Finally, it allows you to extend your lead hand and prepare your recovery hand for sprearing by positioning your shoulders in a more streamlined plane than just laying flat in the water.
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  #30  
Old 03-15-2011
jeetkevdo jeetkevdo is offline
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I am a bit skeptical about the connection between the hip drop assisting in forward propulsion. But aren't there examples of similar actions in sport and machinery?

For example he way I was taught to throw the uppercut included hip rotation...

"To throw a right uppercut, start in the classic boxing stance with the back (right) knee bent. Lower the right shoulder to drop the right side of the body in a semi-crouch position. Now as you rotate the hips forward, push the ball of the back foot, (the right foot), and punch the right fist up towards the target. The right side of the back and the right shoulder will follow through with the rotation of the hips. The hips finish being squared to the front."

And, aren't rotary/vertical movement translated to forward propulsion in different mechanical applications?
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