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  #31  
Old 02-18-2011
CoachBrian CoachBrian is offline
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Sometimes, I think we over analyze things.

First, I think it's important to understand the purpose of the "catch". The catch sets the forearm in a more vertical position so that it has more traction during the weight shift.

If we agree on that understanding, then the timing is simply that the arm needs to be prepared for more traction during the weight shift, and before any pulling.

The "flop" sounds very much like what I describe as "relaxing the hand toward the elbow". After extending forward with the spearing arm, I allow the hand to drop under my "patient elbow".

For me, the relaxation is key. I spent a lot of time trying to force what a non TI coach called a powerful catch. The effort exerted was both tiring and non-productive. Power applied prior to achieving a vertical forearm is likely to be pushing down on the water. And this pushing down is what makes shoulders tired and susceptible to injury. Relaxing into the catch position takes the strain off the shoulder.

I use a variation of the skate drill to learn the catch position. I call it the Skatch drill. Here's a description of the drill: http://www.totalimmersion.net/compon.../article/6/316
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  #32  
Old 02-18-2011
aerogramma aerogramma is offline
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thanks coach brian!
and thanks to everyone who is trying to explain the flop/soft hook

sometimes i whish there was a way to describe those things more schematically, something like graphics overlayed ona video perhaps?


all the best
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  #33  
Old 02-18-2011
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
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DD - My responses are embedded. A very important question. I hope my answers help.
RadSwim

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
I'm not sure I understand.
I have 2 questions :

1) Does the shoulder internal rotation AND the foream lowering happen *simultaneously* ?

The terminology is imprecise. Try this instead: in the initial phase of the catch, internal rotation of the shoulder and flexion of the elbow occur simultaneously. The effect is to move the forearm from horizontal to vertical.

2) When do they occur during the body roll ?
Let's say, I'm on my left track, body tilted 45° on the left.
My body will then be flat, then tilted 45° to the right.
When does the upper arm/shoulder internal rotation occur ?
a) When I'm on my left side (before weight shift)
b) When I'm flat (during weight shift)
c) When I'm on my right side (after weight shift)

b, working toward a. When I first started to learn "early vertical forearm," I had to be be flat. My shoulder simply wouldn't move until I was well into my body roll, essentially flat. With improved strength and flexibility acquired over 3+ years of learning, I am able to start my catch earlier, as I am starting the rotation, before I am flat.

Last edited by RadSwim : 02-18-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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  #34  
Old 02-18-2011
Grant Grant is offline
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I also thank you Coach Brian. Your post captures much of what I have been trying to say. It is very helpful when someone can say much the same thing in a different manner or wording.
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
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  #35  
Old 02-18-2011
Grant Grant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBrian View Post
I use a variation of the skate drill to learn the catch position. I call it the Skatch drill. Here's a description of the drill: http://www.totalimmersion.net/compon.../article/6/316
Wow, this is perfect and explains what I have been trying to say. When I have been saying move the elbow outwards or laterally you say in a much clearer way and it is exactly what I mean. Also the video illustrates it very well.
Good job.
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
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  #36  
Old 02-19-2011
flppr flppr is offline
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Coach Brian's skatch drill is excellent, but it wasn't until Coach Suzanne supplied the missing piece of the puzzle, the intimate connection between the downward movement of the lower arm and core rotation toward the catch arm, that my catch began to feel truly comfortable and effortless. Wait until you feel the core rotation/weight shift begin before you start your catch. Your shoulders will thank you.

Coach Suzanne, you fixed my recovery and my catch. You are a goddess to me!
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  #37  
Old 02-19-2011
Ghul Ghul is offline
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There is a good video from TI Israel on the high elbow catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXsE7apdQMs

They suggest being somewhat flat when making the catch. There is also an article on this point by Russell Mark, the only link I could find to it when I looked on google was:

rockvillerays.us/sc4k/HighElbowAnchor.pdf

but there is probably a better link somewhere.

Probably a bit advanced for most of us but we can always dream...
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  #38  
Old 02-19-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
Coach Brian's skatch drill is excellent, but it wasn't until Coach Suzanne supplied the missing piece of the puzzle, the intimate connection between the downward movement of the lower arm and core rotation toward the catch arm, that my catch began to feel truly comfortable and effortless. Wait until you feel the core rotation/weight shift begin before you start your catch. Your shoulders will thank you.

Coach Suzanne, you fixed my recovery and my catch. You are a goddess to me!
Shucks...if only I had a nickel for everytime someone said that to me..

:)
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  #39  
Old 02-20-2011
Grant Grant is offline
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This is an attempt to gather the points that have been brought up in this thread about the soft hook/flop. I use the word flop just because that was the word that was a breakthrough for me but I agree with Terry's points regarding what its use would mean to most people, so no more "flopping". :o)

First I want to stress this whole process is a continuum, not a series of isolated movements. But for clarities sake I bring them up sequentially and thus in isolation.

I just took a deep breath. To begin.

Lying on left side in skate position - left arm fully extended in desired x,y position with right shoulder rotated enough to be above water and right hip in similar degree of rotation.

Now right arm recovers above water in the prescribed TI manner.

When right hand enters just in front of the head thru the mail slot on its track, the left hand and forearm drops fully relaxed to a vertical position. As the hand is dropping the left elbow moves outside the track with the hand facing directly back. This allows the left hand to stay on the track and not result in crossover. It also takes the strain off the shoulder.

When the left lower arm has reached the vertical position and upper arm still horizontal, the body (hips and shoulders) has rotated to a flat position.

Now with the body in a flat position the right side of the body continues rotating downward which has the effect of creating propulsion by moving the left arm back now in its early vertical position. At the same time the left leg flicks the foot downward. In this description I have not mentioned the core but am assuming this is taken for granted.

So now the left arm is moving back as the right arm is spearing foreword as a unit each on its own track.

Now the left arm begins the recovery by leaving the water opposite the hip and the whole process begins on the other side.

Again I stress that all these steps are in constant motion except for a slight pause when the recovering arm is fully extended.

For me the relaxing of the lower arm while moving to the vertical position was the enabling point.

Feel free to point out inaccuracies or outright errors. :o)

May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
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  #40  
Old 02-20-2011
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Grant,

I am in agreement. The use of the term 'flop' has no place or real relevance in TI freestyle. I used to say that as my leading arm extended forwards, it then yielded to the water, and formed the catch position. The reality is, that this is only half the story. If you want a proper hold on the water, the hand should oscillate very slightly, feeling for the viscosity of the water at full extension, and then as it yields, it should take that feeling into full catch position, for optimum propulsion from hip drive.
It is another thing that one has to focus on when practising but is worth it for the solid feel you get. I practice it doing underswitch drills sometimes for a full hours session. When you segue back into whole stroke the difference in grip can be amazing.

Regards

Janos
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