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  #11  
Old 02-17-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Well I owe you Suzanne and Dave big time. The piece that fell into place was the allowing the forearm to drop in a relaxed fashion. I already had the timing ( at least close :o) ) so it felt like the last piece of a jigsaw.
Am sure that when I take a close look at the jigsaw I will see there are other pieces to be fitted in.
The beat goes on.
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
WOnderful! Video please?
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  #12  
Old 02-17-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
It does sound accidental or limp. Last Sept. while visiting Coach Dave I was shown a dry land drill which I believe is what every one is referring to. The movement of the extended forearm releases into a soft hook type form when the recovering arm spears.
Hello Westy,

Would you mind describing that dry land drill please ?


DD
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  #13  
Old 02-17-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Originally Posted by flppr View Post
That sounds right to me. The important part, though, is that the lowering (I call it relaxing) of the forearm must accompany and be initiated by core rotation toward the catch arm. If not, you're asking for shoulder problems.
Hello flppr,

Do you mean that lowering should not start before the rotation ?

I thought that to prevent shoulder problem, you must not internally rotate and lower the forearm at the same time.
I may be wrong. What do you think ?


DD
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  #14  
Old 02-17-2011
flppr flppr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
Hello flppr,

Do you mean that lowering should not start before the rotation ?

I thought that to prevent shoulder problem, you must not internally rotate and lower the forearm at the same time.
I may be wrong. What do you think ?


DD
Lowering the forearm causes internal rotation at the shoulder. This rotation is less stressful on the shoulder when your body is rotated toward that shoulder.
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2011
terry terry is offline
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My fear about the proliferation of many terms to describe one action is the experience I had in the wake of writing the original TI book. You might describe this as "the law of unintended consequences" produced by insufficiently clear or nuanced language.

One person's words have specific meaning to that person, but may suggest something entirely different to another. Which is why visual communication - foto and video - is far more clear and reliable.

The best example from the original TI book is the recommendation to Swim On Your Side. This resulted from the fact that so many of our early students were not rotating at all.

The problem is that many people took it literally. Within a few years a lot of TI-inspired swimmers were rolling to a stacked position. The cost of this was that not only were they practicing instability, and limiting stroke rate (and therefore speed). It also led to the impression, still current today among many Masters coaches, that TI advocates over-rotation.

So we stopped using Swim On Your Side as common language and made arduous and concerted efforts to promote the phrase Swim OFF Your Stomach. Still video examples of both are safer.

The word "flop" lacks categorical clarity and therefore I would strongly discourage its casual public use. I quite reasonably associate it with both accidental and limp - neither of which is desirable in the entry.

In contrast the sentences "Enter through a Mail Slot" or "Cut a hole in the surface with your hand and slice your forearm cleanly through that hole" admit to far less possibility of misinterpretation.

To minimize the chance that people may do that with needless force, add the sentence "Let the hand drop into the water of its own weight."

Further clarification can be achieved with the instruction "Enter silently" which is almost impossible to misinterpret.

When teaching if I see people entering with excessive force, I describe it as "stabbing" - again much harder to misinterpret. To appeal to their imagination I sometimes use the phrase "Drop into the water like ripe fruit from a tree." which says something a bit different than "flop."

But to be absolutely certain they understand, I then demonstrate - first what I see them doing, then what I'd like them to do. That virtually never fails.
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Last edited by terry : 02-17-2011 at 12:38 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2011
Grant Grant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
My fear about the proliferation of many terms to describe one action is the experience I had in the wake of writing the original TI book. You might describe this as "the law of unintended consequences" produced by insufficiently clear or nuanced language.

One person's words have specific meaning to that person, but may suggest something entirely different to another. Which is why visual communication - foto and video - is far more clear and reliable.

The best example from the original TI book is the recommendation to Swim On Your Side. This resulted from the fact that so many of our early students were not rotating at all.

The problem is that many people took it literally. Within a few years a lot of TI-inspired swimmers were rolling to a stacked position. The cost of this was that not only were they practicing instability, and limiting stroke rate (and therefore speed). It also led to the impression, still current today among many Masters coaches, that TI advocates over-rotation.

So we stopped using Swim On Your Side as common language and made arduous and concerted efforts to promote the phrase Swim OFF Your Stomach. Still video examples of both are safer.

Hi Terry: your points above are well taken and lessons learned.

The word "flop" lacks categorical clarity and therefore I would strongly discourage its casual public use. I quite reasonably associate it with both accidental and limp - neither of which is desirable in the entry.

In contrast the sentences "Enter through a Mail Slot" or "Cut a hole in the surface with your hand and slice your forearm cleanly through that hole" admit to far less possibility of misinterpretation.

To minimize the chance that people may do that with needless force, add the sentence "Let the hand drop into the water of its own weight."

Further clarification can be achieved with the instruction "Enter silently" which is almost impossible to misinterpret.

When teaching if I see people entering with excessive force, I describe it as "stabbing" - again much harder to misinterpret. To appeal to their imagination I sometimes use the phrase "Drop into the water like ripe fruit from a tree." which says something a bit different than "flop."

But to be absolutely certain they understand, I then demonstrate - first what I see them doing, then what I'd like them to do. That virtually never fails.
Just want to clarify what I was saying. Where the use of the word "flop" was a light bulb monent was not in its use to describe the entry but its use to set up the catch. The movement that is required to lower the forearm into a vertical position. Analyzing it further what "flop" did for me was the realization that to lower the forearm it is much easier and better results achieved if the forearm is relaxed. So maybe a more explicit way of saying it would be "allow the forearm to drop to a verticle position in a relaxed state".
With my flexibility I need to move the elbow out at the same I am dropping the forearm in order to keep the hand on track. This is what I thought may be similar to what you call a soft hook

May we swim with ease and without flop :O)
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May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
My fear about the proliferation of many terms to describe one action is the experience I had in the wake of writing the original TI book. You might describe this as "the law of unintended consequences" produced by insufficiently clear or nuanced language.
Amen.

If the internet has proved one thing it's that people can't or won't express themselves clearly in writing.

A pity if you're using the internet to discuss something very complicated.
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Terry, best interpreted with a visual walkthrough demonstration. I made no attempt to establish this as a new standard, but simply sharing what worked for me in the context of improving catch and rotation.

It sets up the movement that occurs just after the catch, and for me has been the only thing that has allowed me to successfully move from the soft hook, vw bug initiation into effective body rotation while maintaining the right arm position. Demonstrated well, i believe, in the video from my before and after thread.
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  #19  
Old 02-17-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by flppr View Post
Lowering the forearm causes internal rotation at the shoulder. This rotation is less stressful on the shoulder when your body is rotated toward that shoulder.
Exactly. Hmm. Need to have at least 10 characters to submit.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #20  
Old 02-17-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Amen.

If the internet has proved one thing it's that people can't or won't express themselves clearly in writing.

A pity if you're using the internet to discuss something very complicated.
Lawrence...please...how does this relate to OP's question? Forgive me, as I'm having a crabby day...but this is yet another example of a passive-aggressive insult. Since my comment in another thread is the one that initiated Grant's question, I'll assume you are commenting on my ability to express myself writing.

Honestly, I take no offense because I don't think you intended to insult me, or the OP, nor do I care what you think of me. But this is (yet another) example of an offensive post that I don't think you realize can be interpreted that way. And I think you need to know that.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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