Fast Triathlon Swimming Split

[haschu33]

Terry,

Quite an answer.

Originally Posted by terry

...Will any of what I've written permanently lay this question to rest? Umm, probably not.

Yes, probably not. The reason is given by a guy called terry:

Originally Posted by terry

...
... by athletes who believe strongly - and perhaps only - in the "protestant work ethic" philosophy of athletic training. Victory goes to the man or woman who shows up earliest and works hardest. Many of them seem to take offense at our advocacy of using ease and relaxation ...

Although I tend to use the word 'catholic' in these contexts ;-)

In a German Triathlon forum I read a post of someone criticizing TI because Terry Laughlin does not look like someone with great fitness.
OK. (He got quite some strong answers in that forum, even there that statement didn't become really popular).

We have a believe-system here. Touching that is a sacrilege. For some.

Maybe those who seek the help of TI are doing it out if simple despair.
And might learn something more then they paid for: You don't necessarily loose your self-identification when you climb out of your box.

I started my long and arduous TI journey with one clear goal in my mind: to be able to swim 1000 or 1500 m freestyle nonstop ( which I always could do in breaststroke ).
I am tempted to add: 1500 m in less than 18 minutes :-) (which I never could do in breaststroke) (and probably never will in any stroke)


Yes, yes: I think I should add that we need to be careful not to do the same: make a belief system out of TI. It's easier to criticize others, and more fun.
Good thing is Terry himself has no tendency to do so.

So, always look for the box and climb out once you found it.

Happy laps.

[josefpinel]

Originally Posted by CoachDave

Once the stroke is in place, there's adjustments to each situation. Shall I add you to the roster of next Saturday's TI Advanced class?

I wish I could attend this Advanced class, unfortunately, I don´t live in the U.S. ...

[josefpinel]

Originally Posted by haschu33

In a German Triathlon forum I read a post of someone criticizing TI because Terry Laughlin does not look like someone with great fitness.

This makes no sense at all, I´m tired of seeing fat guys who have been swimmers since childhood swimming in circles around me in the pool, which makes me really angry...

[CoachSuzanne]

Originally Posted by CoachDave

Once the stroke is in place, there's adjustments to each situation. Shall I add you to the roster of next Saturday's TI Advanced class?

The topics covered in the advanced TI class are what has pushed me forward into new swimming PRs. I'm nowhere near the milestones the OP suggested, but I went from a 500 PR of around 9:10 to a PR of 8:30ish without "trying" to swim fast, but simply applying principals taught to me by Terry & Dave during coaching camps. I continue to work on my form with every single session, but somesessions are devoted more to "endurance speed", which really involves nothing more than maintaining excellent, drag reducing form over longer distances, at a slightly higher stroke rate than you are used to, given that your fundamental stroke is fairly sound.

Myself or Terry or Dave or any number of the coaches could go into this in extensive detail. I'd suggest you look at some of the tempo trainer practice sets posted in the "favorite sets" forum, especially the ones by Lennart Larson and the replies from myself and Terry. Some of that discussion has been taken off-line by the three of us due to lack of response (I think...) so if you are interseted in learning more, please post questions there...or here.

[josefpinel]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

but simply applying principals taught to me by Terry & Dave during coaching camps.

I really wish I could have that advantage of being taught in person, but I live in another country ...

Originally Posted by Terry

At his first tri race, in the spring of 2007, he swam 1.5k in 27+. In the spring of 2009, he swam 18:18 in the Phila. International Triathlon. In the interim he had done no conventional swim training. All his swim development was under TI Coach Lou Tharp. That wasn't good enough for the skeptics; they immediately demanded another example.

Supervision ... proper coaching ... maybe this is what I need to experience a satisfying amount of improvement ... my conclusion is, that the DVD can help (a great deal) , but definitively there are principles that only with proper supervision and personalized teaching can be learned.

If I present a video, would anyone be willing to help with tips and advices ???

[KatieK]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

Myself or Terry or Dave or any number of the coaches could go into this in extensive detail. I'd suggest you look at some of the tempo trainer practice sets posted in the "favorite sets" forum, especially the ones by Lennart Larson and the replies from myself and Terry. Some of that discussion has been taken off-line by the three of us due to lack of response (I think...) so if you are interseted in learning more, please post questions there...or here.

I was following that thread. No comments because I didn't have anything to add.

[haschu33]

If I put myself in josef's shoes here.

What is it in the advanced TI classes? Principles of the 'Easy Freestyle' DVD applied personally and in detail, or other principle that are not covered in the DVD?

I think that is an understandable question. Particularly for those of us who do not have a coach or advanced class at hand.

[terry]

Originally Posted by dobarton

Does swimming "fast" 25s and 50s while really concentrating on form as much as you can produce faster times, even for us older folks? . . . Can I hope to have a 200m under 3 min? Is the best way to do this a tempo trainer that I just very gradually speed up? Or is it repeated sprints done as quickly and cleanly as possible?

This is a good question and one I can answer fairly succinctly.
Is there value in mixing in some "fast" 25s and 50s to your longer training repeats, even if you are training for 1.5km or longer, in open water (or the pool)?

There is a great deal of value in practicing "fast" 25s and 50s -- BUT not in the way most people do. I swam with a Masters team in New Paltz for about 14 years, from 1994 - 2008. Sprints are a regular feature of Masters workouts. The coach would usually say something like "10 x 25 HARD."

And that's exactly what virtually everyone in the pool would do. Swim them HARD with no regard to form. They'd thrash up and down, simply focused on moving their arms as fast as possible, taking 21 or more strokes for 25 yds.

I swam them differently. (1) Think about the stroke feel I want to have in an Open Water race and stay very close to that stroke, and (2) Limit myself to, say, 15 SPL. I would swim with more power than usual and try to swim as fast as possible, but avoid "practicing thrash."

Now that I train by myself, not with Masters, I still do 25s and 50s, but nearly always with Tempo Trainer. When I do shorter repeats I'm focused on combinations of SPL and Tempo that I cannot sustain on longer repeats. E.G. 12 SPL at a tempo of perhaps 1.15 sec/stroke (allowing just 3 beeps on pushoff). I use the shorter repeats, and more exacting combinations of SPL and Tempo to accustom my nervous system to this combination. My thinking is that will improve the less-challenging combinations I can manage on longer repeats. That will improve my speed-capacity at longer repeats.

[terry]

Originally Posted by haschu33

What is it in the advanced TI classes? Principles of the 'Easy Freestyle' DVD applied personally and in detail, or other principle that are not covered in the DVD?

Advanced TI classes differ from the regular workshop mainly in that 25% or less involves drill practice (75% of basic workshop is drill-based) , and the drills we do there are more advanced.

We cover three forms of practice in the Advanced Workshop
1) Review and refinement of advanced forms SpearSwitch and SwingSwitch drills that make them much more like whole-stroke. This involves using the same continuous rhythms of the stroke in switches and the continuous, rhythmic breathing of whole-stroke. These are illustrated in Lessons 5, 6 and 8 of the Self Coached Workshop.
2) SPL exercises designed to teach participants to find their optimal range of 3-4 SPL and how to work within that range to (a) choose and execute a particular SPL, and (b) vary the SPL to swim farther or faster without fatigue.
3) TT exercises to learn how to combine SPL and Tempo for Easy Speed.

[kathyswims]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

the tempo trainer practice sets posted in the "favorite sets" forum, especially the ones by Lennart Larson and the replies from myself and Terry. Some of that discussion has been taken off-line by the three of us due to lack of response (I think...) so if you are interseted in learning more, please post questions there...or here.

Yes, I was following that thread also ... I've just started with the tempo trainer and was applying that information to my own process. It helps. But I have only had two tempo trainer swim dates to speak of ... not enough information to join the discussion.

Sorry Josef -- I'm definitely not the testimonial that you are looking for. I'm very slow but have never wanted to be so very fast. I grew up on a lake and always wanted to swim like people walk ... so I could just swim on for ever essentially. I frustrated my swimming instructors in college because I wouldn't go faster (it was not my goal).

But I do want to learn TI and eventually become a TI coach. So I imagine that someday I will coach a student who wants to be faster. How will I be able to teach that? Can I teach something that I do not do? I believe that I can and that learning to swim "the TI way" will get swimmers further along that path faster than what I learned a long time ago and with less risk of injury.

are you asking:
Is it possible to use these techniques and also swim fast? How much faster can *I* go using this technique?

we have to ask questions in order to answer:
How fast are you now? What is your SPL? at what tempo?

How long will all this learning take? I believe the answer to that is in your determination and motivation to learn.

I think your idea of posting a video is a great one. Most of us have personally experienced this method of learning ... and most of use agree that we look (in reality) nothing like we think we look in our mind ... the video is one tool. In fact when we view our first video, we're not sure we want anyone else seeing it. We also immediately notice something we can improve.

I have more questions --
Have you always been a swimmer? Did you learn traditional swimming methods? How long? Have you ever been a competitive swimmer?

Good luck,
I think you have come to the right place if you are interested in learning.
Kathy