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  #31  
Old 08-07-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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So I suppose that one way to explain the virtue of the one-armed drills is to note that your extended arm can be used to cover a lot of balance and stroking problems by compensating for them. When you put that arm down by your side, you no longer have that crutch and you can all of a sudden see all of the things you are doing wrong. Once you see them, you can work on correcting them.
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66227]
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.


The recovering arm should not push the body down, it should help stability. You are most likely over rotating and recovering the arm too high if that's happening. You should definitely not be "bobbing". That is not how to breathe efficiently when swimming freestyle.
The recovery arm is alway going to push the body down. Its only less when its done fairly smooth and fast and more on the side than over the top.
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  #33  
Old 08-07-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. 'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another.


what do you mean by ... these kind of drills?

'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another

what is the ´them´using them independently of the core?

so you agree with the message of the getting hips with your hips clip?So not rolling the hips for the sake of rolling the hips?
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachJamesEwart View Post
The Pull works best when timed with rotation. We exert pressure to drive forwards from high side to low side past that anchoring low side hand. Pull too soon and you have lost the coupling motion of shifting and catching and holding at the same time. That's another thng that's unhelpful about the Unco drill - it messes up your timing.

We exert pressure to drive forwards
where do we exert pressure?

Pull too soon
when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing?

it messes up your timing
I have to think about this one. There are differnt ways to talk about timing.
One is the timing of one arm relative to the other when shifting from one side to the other. The weightshift.(with the kick etc)
The other is the timing of the the whole entering of the arm, setting up catch, connecting with core and kick, followed by recovery and back to entering and making that cycle as smooth and effective as possible.<
In my view the weight shift is a part of the whole sequence, but only a part of the whole stroke.
By taking away this part you can focus more on the other parts.
I have heard plenty times, and also from personal experience, that it improves your timing. Especially your smoothness and connection from all bodyparts that are still available.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-07-2018 at 02:55 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
how many words to use?

Unco is good for:

Timing
Roll from the core
Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm
Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll
Breathing while not disturbing the process.

Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better.
Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo.
The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear.
Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned.
With every action you can focus on the effect of that action.
How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water?
What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much?
How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit?
At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce?
Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine.
If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine.
Zt, I have to giggle on this one, and your response is why I avoid this drill. If you need to use this many words to describe what it does, there’s really no point to the drill. I would suggest change the name from UNCO to SAP, “single arm pull”, that’s what it is. This is what we want to avoid treating high and low side arms as independent departments, it’s all connected. The UNCO/SAP is like a one legged elephant (OLE?), if there were any benefit at all it’s removed with the problems, confusion, frustration it creates, especially for the novice. It may look cool to do with fins, but if cool has no specific point, it’s not cool and is counterproductive. I do kinda like OLE’ though, it’s catchy (pun intended) and describes it much better the UNCO :-). I suggest trying the TI “Slot to Skate”, this is the whole body connected move you are seeking, high and low side arms connected with hips, using weight of high side arm to rotate body and not pulling to rotate. Swimmers discover the complexities of the “catch” happens naturally too. Simple, effective, easy to execute, and is rehearsing the most important whole body movment and switch that quickly integrates into freestyle.

Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side. This is aimed at experienced swimmers that have no idea they’ve relied on the pulling arm for stability and human terrestrial movements triggering imbalance.

Maybe I missed it in the noise, but still didn’t catch what type of engineering you are in, where you from (Perth?), where you coach, your favorite swimming pool or areas, films of you swimming/drilling, etc. A little bio helps give us context of your background and love of swimming and coaching.

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com
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  #36  
Old 08-07-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Zt, I have to giggle on this one, and your response is why I avoid this drill. If you need to use this many words to describe what it does, there’s really no point to the drill. I would suggest change the name from UNCO to SAP, “single arm pull”, that’s what it is. This is what we want to avoid treating high and low side arms as independent departments, it’s all connected. The UNCO/SAP is like a one legged elephant (OLE?), if there were any benefit at all it’s removed with the problems, confusion, frustration it creates, especially for the novice. It may look cool to do with fins, but if cool has no specific point, it’s not cool and is counterproductive. I do kinda like OLE’ though, it’s catchy (pun intended) and describes it much better the UNCO :-). I suggest trying the TI “Slot to Skate”, this is the whole body connected move you are seeking, high and low side arms connected with hips, using weight of high side arm to rotate body and not pulling to rotate. Swimmers discover the complexities of the “catch” happens naturally too. Simple, effective, easy to execute, and is rehearsing the most important whole body movment and switch that quickly integrates into freestyle.

Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side. This is aimed at experienced swimmers that have no idea they’ve relied on the pulling arm for stability and human terrestrial movements triggering imbalance.

Maybe I missed it in the noise, but still didn’t catch what type of engineering you are in, where you from (Perth?), where you coach, your favorite swimming pool or areas, films of you swimming/drilling, etc. A little bio helps give us context of your background and love of swimming and coaching.

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com
This is butterfly exit & recovery?

Also known at the "karate chop" recovery used by alot of pro freestylers.

Single arm fly drill that i have seen is an undulatiing body dolphin just using the one arm
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  #37  
Old 08-07-2018
CoachJamesEwart CoachJamesEwart is offline
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[quote=Danny;66229]
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Originally Posted by CoachJamesEwart View Post

This bobbing motion is more pronounced in the one arm drill because the opposing arm is down at your side and not extended. When the opposing arm is extended, it supports the weight of the recovering arm and damps the bobbing. If you look at the film of Terry doing the one armed drill you will also see a pronounced bobbing, as ZT has already pointed out.

In real freestyle, the opposing arm is extended and this effect is more subtle, but it is still there.
You should not be bobbing and certainly not be using the aforementioned Bob to help you breathe.

I don't like the one armed drills for freetstyle in any of its form actually but if you find benefit in it then of course use it.
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  #38  
Old 08-07-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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So, if you are not supposed to bob, why is Terry bobbing so much during his one arm freestyle?
How could he stop the bobbing?
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  #39  
Old 08-07-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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for Coach Stuart


Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side

You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward

Maybe you dont need many words, but can somebody explain what is meant here?
How is the weight of the recovering arm pulling the body forward?
And where exactly does that forward pulling starts and stops?
Single arm fly where the body doesnt sink?
Do you have an example video from that drill?

You seem to assume I have some connection with swimsmooth?
I have not a single connection to any swimschool. I am not a coach. I am just someone who is interested in swimming.
I dont sell books. I dont have a single swimstyle bias. Contrary to TI or swimsmooth coaches, who are biased to one style or the other. Work in R&D as a mechanical engineer, in the Netherlands.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-07-2018 at 05:25 PM.
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  #40  
Old 08-07-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66238]
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post

You should not be bobbing and certainly not be using the aforementioned Bob to help you breathe.

I don't like the one armed drills for freetstyle in any of its form actually but if you find benefit in it then of course use it.
James, if you mean that you should not introduce a Bob into your stroke for the purposes of facilitating breathing, then I agree with you totally.

I think the one armed drill is useful in the same way that skating is useful. Both drills remove the use of arms and hands to cover up stroke problems. The idea is that you should correct your problems rather than cover them up. So what does the one armed drill offer that skating does not? For me, a lot of problems can arise in the catch and anchor that may throw off my balance and torque me in a direction that I shouldn't be going in. Skating doesn't practice catch and anchor, but the one armed drill does, and without the extended hand on the other side, I get to see some of the problems I might otherwise not notice. Your objection that the catch and anchor should be a whole body movement, which is hindered in the one-armed drill also does not seem to hold to me. The part of the recovery that influences your catch and anchor is done with your recovering shoulder and torso, and there is nothing in the one-armed drill to stop you from practicing the high side recovery motion with your shoulder. In fact, placing more emphasis on shoulder recovery gives a useful perspective to me when I do it.

No drill is the same as full stroke, and all drills can be criticized for this. A drill emphasizes certain aspects of full stroke and neglects other aspects. Sometimes this emphasis can be useful, but it depends on what problems you are dealing with.

As far as bobbing is concerned, as I said above, it is a bad idea to introduce bobbing into your stroke to facilitate breathing. That said, the one armed drill does make you aware of what impact the recovering arm has on your body position in water. As a matter of principle, I find it helpful to be aware of such things. In full stroke, the bobbing is greatly reduced because of the extended arm. It is also impacted by the timing and nature of the kick. So there are a lot of choices here about what to do with this effect. But the effect is there and being aware of it is (in my opinion) a good thing. Breathing technique is an area that probably deserves its own thread (or even forum), but I will only observe that I see vast differences in the breathing technique (for example) of Terry and Shinji. I think a lot of these differences are due to differences in body type and flexibility. That is where each of us has to find their own right choices. Being aware of the weight of the recovering arm and its impact on breathing is (again in my opinion) something that is useful. what you do with this knowledge is up to you.
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