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  #181  
Old 07-05-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Yes I am, and for (too?) long time I've been satisfied (complacent?) with it. It differs(ed) a little from more support to rotation (timed when catch goes over in press) in my relaxed pace; to my faster pace, when I try to more support spearing, then it happens a (even) little later, when press is in work together with reduced rotation.
Werner,

thanks for the reply. I'm not sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that for a long time you were doing the "flick and hold" but now you are experimenting with other ways of kicking? Do you think that "flick and hold" might not be the best method?

Thanks!
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  #182  
Old 07-05-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Tom,

Quote:
Are you saying that for a long time you were doing the "flick and hold" but now you are experimenting with other ways of kicking? Do you think that "flick and hold" might not be the best method?
Yes... no... may be... Next try:

First step has been -some years ago- to get my legs from cycling-like movement into steady streamline, nearly without any motion.

Next and for now longest time I came to a combination from core-movement from reaching forward and light rotation as support of a flick-hold kick. Think origin was a short video, where Todd Ericison demonstrates that 2BK starting from flat Superman-position. (From this suggestion my kick was timed by feeling, not by thought and related to your earlier descriptions in this thread, more as late as you tried to integrate your's in your later rotation-start when catch has been finished.) Most important for me: My legs had to stay streamlined all time.

Then I read/translated Terry's 2.0-chapter about 2BK, and it became clear, I'm missing the sensation of pressure along the whole leg. So I one and then worked on my kick again, trying ot achieve this sensation. (This time initiated by this thread.)

And now the part I hesitated to write about: It's difficult to find the right words in German, even harder to try writing them in English and probably impossible to find the at least quarter-right ones in Californish :-)
Yesterday I realized what Terry meant. It's tight to Dave's description. I even nearly wouldn't call it kick or flick. It's a smooth movement of the not too stiffened leg (like an osier?), felt initiated by the core/hips, more leaning from one side to the other, more leisurely than forced, more felt as finest tuning of the streamline than supporting or forcing anything. It felt so naturally... and it shared 1-2SPL (only LCM) with any of my SRs. Simply GREAT. Not sure, if it has been a mayfly, and hope it will be reproducable... and imprintable.

Funny enough, but typical for TI(?). I didn't write anything that not has been posted by someone before, but yesterday it seemed some new parts of the puzzle fell together. No secrets, all was open and described but now it seemed a new, awaited part of the picture appeared first time.

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 07-05-2018 at 11:18 PM.
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  #183  
Old 07-21-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.

Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke. After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.

By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!
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  #184  
Old 07-21-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.

Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke. After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.

By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!
You want to be up at the front
this is what i discovered recently too
looking straight down is not good to set up EVF
go ahead and raise your head position to 45 deg forward (look at the low tiles on the far wall)
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  #185  
Old 07-21-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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big difference in drag reduction too i found

i only put it right down if im doing straight arm so i can get max reach
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  #186  
Old 07-21-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Try static float with face down and also slightly up you can still stay level with a 2bk
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  #187  
Old 07-21-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Head slightly up creates more core tension which gives a better platform to ride forward on
(sternum forward Bill Boomer)
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  #188  
Old 07-23-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.

That's great. The fulcrums are an excellent awareness tool, and yes only for short distances during repeats. They feel like wearing a cast, but that feeling is making us aware of all the adding movements with the hands that need to be minimized or removed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke.
That's quite common. I see swimmers heave their bodies into a better leverage position to grip water, but comes at a huge expense in drag, where all or more power is lost to the water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.
Well said, I but would change "problem" to "opportunity". It's a work in process and continued refinement. And when you work on new patterns of movement, others will seem to fall apart - this is all building new awareness. Work on refining *one* part of your stroke at a time and often where other parts feel like they're falling apart, it's more likely a new pattern (out of comfort zone) is happening due to refining balance and foundation of the part you are refining. Any new movement pattern, correcting a movement pattern, even subtle refining of a movement pattern will always feel awkward. If it doesn't, you are in your current pattern or comfort zone. Awkward is good, learning, creating new connections and adaptations - as long as there is no pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!
That's great to hear! Keep up the good work and continue push yourself out of the "comfort zone". "Focus on process not outcomes" ~Terry Laughlin

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #189  
Old 07-30-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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F.A.O Danny
v
https://youtu.be/Nv6qDqKPd_M
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  #190  
Old 07-30-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Mushroom, i did watch that clip, but I'm not sure it is addressing a problem I really have. I tend to look somewhat forward, not straight down, and my major sin is to lift my head too high, not keeping it too much in line with my spine. All stuff to pay attention to and work on though
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