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  #41  
Old 10-10-2016
cc311206
 
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Danny...i established a stroke count two months ago when i had a pause in my recovery hand. I used that as a frame of reference.

I now swim with a higher stroke count, having taken out the hand pause, but my time has been reduced by 20percent. In other words, i swim faster than before, which is good!

My challenge now is that this thin and thick feeling comes and goes, often times within the same length. I have a hard time holding on to it, to analyse why, let alone trying to repeat. At times, i even thought maybe i was just hallucinating. (Smile)

CK
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi CK,

There's a balancing act here. I find that counting strokes can distract me from feeling things that may be important, so, if I want to concentrate on feeling, I may neglect stroke counting. As you get better at doing it, you may find that it becomes easier, so, for example, you can concentrate on feeling and stroke counting at the same time, but only for short distances. Anyway, all of these tools should be considered as options, not rules.

I am also familiar with things that come and go when swimming and not being able to figure out why. Now that I am old and arthritic, I have started to pay almost as much attention to how I walk as to how I swim, and I experience a lot of the same difficulties in walking. But over time, I have started to realize and understand more and more about what my body is doing and how to control it, even as my body continues to deteriorate :o)
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc311206 View Post
Danny...i established a stroke count two months ago when i had a pause in my recovery hand. I used that as a frame of reference.

I now swim with a higher stroke count, having taken out the hand pause, but my time has been reduced by 20percent. In other words, i swim faster than before, which is good!

My challenge now is that this thin and thick feeling comes and goes, often times within the same length. I have a hard time holding on to it, to analyse why, let alone trying to repeat. At times, i even thought maybe i was just hallucinating. (Smile)

CK
Hi CC,

The hitch at the hip is a common problem especially learning front quadrant timing. The human in us wants to couple the arms together, the lead arm holding in front can trigger a hitch or pause at the hip. A good set of focal points to resolve the hitch at hip is 1. "continuous recovery", no deceleration or pause at hip, and 2. "tear drop" - the point or apex of tear drop is the extended arm in front and where stroke begins and ends. Once lead arm begins to move it follows that natural tear drop like shape, the bottom of the tear drop is the exit and recovery arm moving forward - no hitching, staggering, deceleration along that smooth, continuous path.

Re: Thick and thin feeling in the water. The "thick" feeling is hips are dropping 2-3" or more increasing your drag profile exponentially. The hitch at the hip, decelerating at hip causes hips to fall. So this may be cue that hitch is sneaking back in. Also, lifting elbow above the back destabilizes the vessel causing hips to sink. Rather swing elbow away from body line. The hitch at hip and lifting elbow at recovery are interrelated such that hitching/pausing hip triggers the elbow to lift above the back since there is no momentum to swing recovery arm/elbow wide (due to hitching/stopping recovery arm at the hip).

The good news is you have become very aware something is wrong (and right) by both feeling and stroke count.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 10-10-2016 at 04:32 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-10-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Do you know the feeling when you wrap your arm around someones shoulder who is the same height as yourself or taller?
Thats what you want to feel in your armpit and on your arm right after catch if you want to feel thick water.
The shouldercomplex is lifted up. Its attached to the ribcage and through the core to hips and legs. The whole body is setup like a spring to launch from your anchor in the water.
Female swimmers complain noting fits anymore on their torso. A lot of muscles surrounding the ribcage become bigger and stronger from connecting that shoulder to the trunc, together with a core to connect your front anchor and control forces from arms to legs and keep everything aligned.
Swimmers dont have big arms, but a very strong section inbetween arms and legs.
Imaging climbng a rock. but with a few handicaps;
- Your arm is cut off right after the elbow. No hand,only half a forearm left..
- Your frontside is not allowed to touch the rocks, so your have so climb the rock a bit sideways, going from left to rightside and back.
When you have anchored one arm on the rock, you throw that other arm forward to reach the next higher anchor point.
It all goes way further than playing with hand awareness. You have to forget about the hands and get the bigger picture what your body is doing in that rock climbing example.
The muscles in hand and forarm through shoulder are mainly used for stabilizing the paddle shape and holding it at the optimal angles. The rest the body is moving the paddle for the most part.

The water is your friend. (but you push him down in the dryland arm around shoulder example. or push yourself forward after the catch in the water)
http://powerpictures.crystalgraphics...low_sitting_on

The basic action in an exagerated way, the windup position before launch:


So.,just as in other sports, the windup before the launch is important.
Fast swimmers will show the above seen windup position., but in a less exagerated way.
For your launch you need a good ground support in the landbased sports. In swimming you need a good water support. Thats the often talked about anchor, which applies to legs and arms.
A good paddle shape is needed for a good arm anchor. If your paddle shape is good, the water will feel thick. If you build up the force gradually on that paddle the water will feel even thicker.

windup in throwing actions:
http://trackandfield.about.com/od/ja...-Spotakova.htm
The mechanics of throwing and swimming are very different, but the windup before launch applies for both, although in swimming its melting into a continuous left-right-left movement.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 10-11-2016 at 04:49 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Found some interesting footage that shows some other points of getting good trction or feeling thick water.

When you move smooth and have a nice roll going in the process, you can get good traction that feels effortless in a way at the same time. You are junping on a running train and you just have to go with the flow.
Here is Terry showing exactly that:

Terry smooth roll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqlR5tdziTw
You are having the same going right now in a beginner stage. Cherish it.

Trying to focus too much on distance per stroke teaches good balance between strokes, but the traction on the underwater action itself often gets compromised.
If you have to pull from an almost standstill, the pull will always feel horrible.
There cant be a connection with the rest of the bodies movement because its impossible to accelerate the the whole body from that isolated pull.
result is slppage and feeling thin water.
Keeping forward momentum is helping you a lot to get a better traction on the water.<

Focus on distance per stroke. Good balance and streamline between strokes. Crappy armstroke.
He has proven his point and now has to focus on other things. Too much of a good thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7io29Yx4jLg

And finally the shape of the paddle again.
Here some people who perfectly demonstrate how to make an inefficient paddle.
They are poking their friend on the shoulder with their elbow, not laying the arm around the shoulder.
Be friendly to the water.

dropped elbows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PzDZb77no
This has nothing to do with limited shoulder flexibility. Its more a matter of awareness.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 10-12-2016 at 08:26 AM.
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  #46  
Old 10-12-2016
cc311206
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi CC,

.... Also, lifting elbow above the back destabilizes the vessel causing hips to sink. Rather swing elbow away from body line.

Stuart
Coach Stuart... do you mean the recovery elbow crossing center line destabilizing the body balance, as depicted by my left elbow in 1.01 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMqo...ture=youtu.be?
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2016
cc311206
 
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ZT.. i read and reread several times your last two posts. Some points clicked but there are numerous others in there which i'll have some more serious digesting to do. Guess many points are beyond my current level of comprehension.

Two more days to go, and my residence pool will be closed (sigh).

Today the wind was quite strong creating waves that rippled across the pool; temperature dropped; water felt so cool that i had to constantly move around to keep warm. I felt i was kinda swimming in open water (smile).

CK
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  #48  
Old 10-12-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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ZT, I have a really hard time judging a dropped elbow from a front shot of the swimmer. The first swimmer does not seem to have it. The woman is "ripping" a little, that is, her hand is always below her elbow, but her forearm does not appear to be vertical during her stroke. This would be much easier to see in a shot from the side. The last swimmer has lots of different problems and, not surprisingly, he is also the one who is most clearly dropping his elbow.

In summary, if you want to illustrate this stuff, I think side shots are much more effective than front ones. What do you think? Am I missing things that you see?

CK, I am sad that your pool is closing. Does that mean that we won't hear from you anymore for a while? We've been having fun giving you advice because you are such a quick learner!
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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it was on the same channel, so I was a bit lazy choosing it. Have seen so many dropped elbows by now, but this front view still was kind of interesting.
You are right the first guy has the least of it.
Everybody knows what a dropped elbow is I guess.I have shown more than enough sideviews also. Its just there to complete the story about getting optimal traction.
I am realising more and more that a dropped elbow isnt only simply a non optimal paddle, but the swimmer using it is usally also less connected to that non optimal paddle.
Beginners start with an arm only action and slowly it becomes a body movement with an added arm action as an extension ofa more centralized action. You know all the inside out swimming stuff.

Playing with the shoulder extension myself lately, separating shoulder from the arm extension.
Takes time to get shoulder complex awareness and movability of that region.
Its a controllable link from arm to body that can be used to good advantage. At least, the best swimmers are using it, and we try to learn someting from the best swimmers do we?
Also in the same youtube space was this guy.
Playing with his shoulder mobility. Not a bad thing to have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCPLEi1aOGE
Dont know what he is saying. seems to be about the good sliding attachment of the shoulderblade to the ribcage. Movability without the shoulderblade sticking out the back. but sliding over the ribgage.
Having this kind of shoulder complex reach and control is good for catching lots of water and powering that shouldercomplex with the arm on top of it relative to the ribcage and than furher downward to the core and kick.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 10-12-2016 at 06:37 PM.
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  #50  
Old 10-12-2016
Janos Janos is offline
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To improve, you really need to look at what the weakest link is in your stroke.
Once the basics are mastered, then it will almost certainly be the disparity between the right and left tracks of your stroke.
For example, you can't assume that the feel for the catch with your right arm (if you are right-handed) will be the same on your left, you will almost certainly be slipping so much more water on left hand strokes.
If you want to improve your stroke count and swimming overall, then there are big gains to be made in working on your 'weaker' side.
Starting laps on that 'weaker' side will mean a higher stroke count at first, but will bring shortcomings more into focus. Especially if you force yourself to breathe on the side you feel least comfortable with too. Symmetry is important. Smooth is fast.
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