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  #71  
Old 11-18-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Well, if you want to swim like Shinji, I agree that there is not so much that can be copied directly from her stroke.
Her catch kick and connection is better than most peoples, but its al working together a bit different than in a Shinji like stroke.
Tried the Boomer drill and for me it worked best with a more kayaktiming ballistic fast armrecovery stroketype like Janet Evans compared to a slow strokerate catcup high elbow stroketype.
Very little recovery momentum in the latter style to use.
The definition of momentum is mass X speed.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-18-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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  #72  
Old 11-19-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I can see the beauty in her stroke despite the splashing, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.
It al looks like a giant waiste of energy, but how can you be the greatest distance swimmer of all time (Ledecky will take over probably) if you are waisting enormous amounts of energy? Its impossible to be so much fitter than the rest of the swimming world.
We are not olympic champions. Whatever, those people would be always
better than you and me.
If we are not after being fastest in the pool, compared to bodybuilders and
managers, we should enjoy out time swimming. Learning is also process,
that gives a lot of pleasure. Planning. From time to time I see guys who
hate me, if they cannot overswim me. Imagine that!

This weekend I will try to change something. Just as I did to backstroke.
In bs I set rotation extremely to the side. Not exactly 90 degrees, but more
than 60, for sure. Leading arm goes for a long time extended. That all
makes me swim more relaxed and better balanced.

In freestyle, I feel fine, when I'm not extremely on the side. I could lean on
armpit and cruise easily. But... that's not good enough. I'm not fast as
I could be and recovery goes too wide, at least for me. I will try to take
almost side position and use inner leading arm rotation to the end. From
that I will try to add some energy to recovery arm. To simply throw it for-
wards, forearm relaxed. In bs that side position made a difference, for
better.

I'm delighted how people on this forum take interest in finding the way to
swim better and feel batter, doing that.
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  #73  
Old 11-19-2015
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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Just to go back to the original post, it seems to me that the idea that you can pull yourself down the pool using the momentum of your arm is illusory. Imagine sitting on a skateboard and trying to move yourself forward by swinging your arm forward. Or floating in space doing the same. It won't work. Any forward force you apply to your arm to generate momentum will be equalled by a backward force transmitted to your body. All forward motion must be produced by the reaction of pushing back against water. The TI idea of not concentrating on the pull may be an effective way of getting a feel for the stroke, but in fact the pull is what is generating the force. In the same way, what coach Boomer is saying may well help the stroke, but arm momentum isn't actually creating a net forward force.
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  #74  
Old 11-19-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I tried this drill, and I was skeptical, but with an opposite side downkick together with a forcefull acceleration of the arm in the first part of the recovery, it seemed some force is transmitted forward at arm entry point.

Imaging your skateboard. The reactionkick can provide the horizontal reactionforce that a skateboard also delivers.
Now imagine a weight that is able to swing on a rod. The bearing of the rod is attached to the skateboard in front of the middle of the skateboard.
So the weight can swing from the rear of the skateboard in an arc towards over the front of the skateboard.
We fire some gunpowder between skatebord and weight when the weight is laying on the rear of the skatebord.
The weight is propelled upward, the skateborad downward, but that movement is stopped by the wheels.(in swimming the kick)
The weight rotates at the end of the rod around the bearing until its moving forward at 90 degrees rotation, but to change its direction it has pulled the skateboard backwards.(nett backwards centrifugal force through rod to bearing)
When it nearly hits the skateboard again at the front, it has again changed direction and has pulled the skateboard forward.
The nett effect in horizontal direction is zero, but we have weight that is moving down just before impact on the skateboard.
If we attach a paddle to the weight and angle it a bit, the weight shoots forward and down, so at least the counterforce of the kick together with an accelerated arm can help the arm entry.
This is the opposite of the deep TI spearing arm with water pressure at the top side of the arm.
For a Janet Evans type stroke a fast entry to catch while relaxing the arm and letting the kinetic energy do the work this is helpfull.
The kick takes some load of the arms in this way. Its logical for her. She is not miss armmuscle and must use whatever muscle in the body that can be helpfull, even if it goes via an indirect path.
The counteractiong kick works at the opposite side of the centerline, so it also drives rotation. When the arm enters this rotation also adds to give it extra speed and proper direction.
A part of the pressure under the arms is also pointing backwards, so kinetic energy is converted in an arm entry without muscle force, and some forward force from the water under the arm.
A splashy technique , but interesting.....


There is also the difference between producing static force with the underwater arm and dynamic force.
Imagine doing pull ups.
Hanging halfway a pullup is easier than pulling yourself up.
In the last case you are generating nett power, but lets assume that is minimal.
If you accelerate the recovering arm while the other one is pulling, you accelerate the body back a litle bit. This means that the relative speed between water and pulling arm increases a bit without an increase in armspeed.
The static component of the force generation has increased. Maybe this also makes the pull feel more solid. It feels like you are moving a larger paddle through the water.
I must say that this forward/backward acceleration of the whole body through the acceleration of the (relative light) recovering arm is small.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-20-2015 at 06:11 AM.
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  #75  
Old 11-20-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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Shinji really breaks it down nicely here.
I have not found this video except via Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/swimlikeshi...1724267225424/
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  #76  
Old 11-20-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Yeah, thats great footage to swim along mentally.
Really good to see how entry, pull and kick are all working together.
compared to his most famous video, he is entering the water w bit further up front with a flatter extension it seems.
He is making some splash by entering still a fraction too soon for his ballance skill level for my liking, and i like his left arm underwater movement better than his right but WoW, close to perfection for this kind of stroke.
Thanks for posting.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-20-2015 at 06:18 AM.
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  #77  
Old 11-20-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
There is also the difference between producing static force with the underwater arm and dynamic force.

If you accelerate the recovering arm while the other one is pulling, you accelerate the body back a litle bit. This means that the relative speed between water and pulling arm increases a bit without an increase in armspeed.

I must say that this forward/backward acceleration of the whole body through the acceleration of the (relative light) recovering arm is small.
I always like to read your explanations!
It took me a century to stop pulling. Even more to keep leading arm still.
My first readings of Terry's articles were about just moving recovery arm
to the front. It was all hip rotation, hip rotation... Now, we all talk about
energy and take examples of record holders.

Recalling Boomer, I am sure his swimmer pays no attention to recovery
arm acceleration. He throws one half of his body. His hip is one with arm.

There is something behind "no pull". I do not pull. I anchor. This is a very
difference. After some period, one might feel the water as a firm substance.
Cannot say how it looks from outside, but I have an impression I do little
of what "casual" swimmer does. No pull, no leg work. What was left? Here
we are! We prove the very idea. Personally, I took Terry's advice seriously.
First balance. If done, streamline. If done, propulsion. Always that algorytam.
If I struggle, I recheck balance... Now... I see there is a chance to add
more. Impetus of arm above the water. It does change original starting po-
sition. Previously, it was without acceleration. With recovery arm in action,
hip goes with starting speed. I'm quite interested to find out how I might
use it, if possible. I will report any progress, if someone wants to know.
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  #78  
Old 11-20-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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if you are sure you are holding the water in your mental image, swim past a pool stair and lock you arm on that stair.
I bet you are shocked how much that arm is actually slipping in the water if you compare with the hold you get from that stair.
But the mental image does work in some way, so why not use it?
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  #79  
Old 11-20-2015
Janos Janos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
I always like to read your explanations!
It took me a century to stop pulling. Even more to keep leading arm still.
My first readings of Terry's articles were about just moving recovery arm
to the front. It was all hip rotation, hip rotation... Now, we all talk about
energy and take examples of record holders.

Recalling Boomer, I am sure his swimmer pays no attention to recovery
arm acceleration. He throws one half of his body. His hip is one with arm.

There is something behind "no pull". I do not pull. I anchor. This is a very
difference. After some period, one might feel the water as a firm substance.
Cannot say how it looks from outside, but I have an impression I do little
of what "casual" swimmer does. No pull, no leg work. What was left? Here
we are! We prove the very idea. Personally, I took Terry's advice seriously.
First balance. If done, streamline. If done, propulsion. Always that algorytam.
If I struggle, I recheck balance... Now... I see there is a chance to add
more. Impetus of arm above the water. It does change original starting po-
sition. Previously, it was without acceleration. With recovery arm in action,
hip goes with starting speed. I'm quite interested to find out how I might
use it, if possible. I will report any progress, if someone wants to know.
Fooboo, I totally agree with all you say in this post. You are on the right track, and have found your way through hard work and intuition rather than video. Well done.
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  #80  
Old 11-21-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I bet you are shocked how much that arm is actually slipping in the water if you compare with the hold you get from that stair.
But the mental image does work in some way, so why not use it?
ZT, your posts are perfect to answer on any topic!
Also, thanks Janos to tell me I'm not totally on the wrong forum.

I agree that water is not quite solid as an iron. But, it is about 800 times
denser than air. I play on that. When I say "anchor" i actually mean to say
"brakes". On i.e. left side, recovery, roll with a kick. When almost on the
right side, I just bend an arm to have forearm vertical. Then, then, then
resistance grows up, since I harmed on streamline. That forearm stays in
place just like I forgot it there. I have to tense muscles to be one and imagine
I jump over that forearm in place. Not like a frog. The momentum of cont-
rary side is still in effect, so I use it. I just put a solid spot to lean on. Or I
think I do.

What I see under the water is people beside me working heavily with arms
and kicking even harder. I am aware that at the time I do absolutelly nothing.
Working on TI elements I ruined vertical forearm and have to implement it
correctly again. I worked so hard to have leading arm still, that I tend to keep
it there forever. Have to say myself "bend, bend, stupid!'.

Today I will try to go extremly to the side and recover from there. Initial
Terry's articles mentioned drills on the side. He abandoned it, but now I think
there is the answer for recovery with an impetus. Sorry, Terry!
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