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  #41  
Old 11-09-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I have read that this test should be done with a a sort of relaxed body?
I am describing body position floating level with a pressed chest and keeping the legs up in aquatic posture style, also with arms extended forward.
I guess minimal body tone is needed to mininally keep the body straight?
Otherwise its more a dead mans float with arms and legs hanging down.
Completely relaxed, no tone or deadman's float (which assumes some tone). Allow the water to place you, just relax and hang suspended, arms legs hang, allow waist to bend and wait until body is stable and still (no movement) - doesn't take more than than 15 secs or so. This is your aquatic signature or where the water and gravity want to place your body.
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  #42  
Old 11-09-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Boomer, it seems to me is showing how the dropping of the shoulder and pelvic rotation drives the stroke. The recovery arm movement facilitates this.
The raising and dropping of the shoulder in freestyle is a similar action to the raising and dropping of the body in breaststroke and fly.
Terminology puzzles me here.
What is "dropping of the shoulder"? I consider freestyle and backstroke
long axis swimming and breast and fly short axis ones. Freestyle takes
it's energy from rotation in a long axis, not moving in other plane. Right?

So far, I see a big difference between Boomer video and our forums. His
swimmer really, really takes arm throw and hip movement as one and it
is powerful deed. Tried to combine two and went nowhere. Elbow deep
cannot be whole arm throw. If it could, I'd like to learn as soon as possible.
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  #43  
Old 11-09-2015
Janos Janos is offline
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Recovery of the arm in freestyle means that one shoulder will be out of the water, due to rotation of the body. The shoulder drops when the recovering arm enters the water. In freestyle only one shoulder drops, but in breaststroke and fly both shoulders drop. All three are seeking the same means of propulsion.
In freestyle we do rotate on the long axis, but it is a compromise because we are human. No fish does this. So for smooth fish-like TI swimming there has to be a degree of undulation along the short axis too, even in freestyle. This means the timing of the two-beat kick has to be linked to the arm extension.
Boomer has talked before about the 'armthrow harmonic', and I interpret that as seeking the connection between the lead arm and the kick for the smoothest possible stroke.
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  #44  
Old 11-09-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
Completely relaxed, no tone or deadman's float (which assumes some tone). Allow the water to place you, just relax and hang suspended, arms legs hang, allow waist to bend and wait until body is stable and still (no movement) - doesn't take more than than 15 secs or so. This is your aquatic signature or where the water and gravity want to place your body.
I was afraid the legs would sink right to the bottom if I would relax everything, but to my surprise nothing happened. Feet didnt touch the ground even in arn deep water. I am a happy man!
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  #45  
Old 11-10-2015
bx bx is offline
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Tried my aquatic signature tonight following Boomer's instructions, and my legs point straight down, giving me an angle (chin to ankles) of around 80 - 85 degrees. So I'm not built for long distance freestyle, which could explain a thing or two...
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  #46  
Old 11-10-2015
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Also an interesting video from Coach Boomer, "throwing recovery arm (or high side) weight forward connected to pelvis generating (forward) momentum in its rhythm cycle and space": Freestyle Re-imagined
I'm coming to this a little late. I have to say I see many flaws in the drill illustrated on this video
1) Over-rotation to a stacked position.
2) Arms crossing to centerline.
Both of these hurt core-stability
3) The circling-overhead recovery arm.
This significantly reduces connection of weight shift to arm stroke. It also looks like an injury waiting to happen.

Finally, the long kicking-glides hurt, not help, rhythm.
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  #47  
Old 11-10-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
I have to say I see many flaws in the drill illustrated on this video
1) Over-rotation to a stacked position.
2) Arms crossing to centerline.
Both of these hurt core-stability
3) The circling-overhead recovery arm.
This significantly reduces connection of weight shift to arm stroke. It also looks like an injury waiting to happen.
Finally, the long kicking-glides hurt, not help, rhythm.
All correct. Best bet is that Boomer exaggerated moves to show
them properly.
After seeing the video again, I fancy if that recovery arm makes
not circling, but linear move to fulfill the task? Swimmer really, really
throws. He cannot do it, but in linear way. Am I wrong or K. Ledecky
already swam Boomer style? With above mentioned complaints taken.
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  #48  
Old 11-10-2015
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Hi Terry, fooboo,

Yes, agree on 1, 2, and 3 especially in drill. But when swimmer "Sam" transitions into whole stroke he begins to flatten out and strikes wider on shoulder width tracks. But as I noted with Coach Eric earlier is to remove our current filters and listen to the message and language used, not necessarily what we see is immediately or obviously wrong (or right) from a teaser video.

The message is how momentum of the recovery connected to hip (pelvis) pulls the swimmer down the pool, *not* from pushing water back. The focus on starting the stroke at recovery helps remove the impulse or instinct to pull the arm back. The pulling impulse is easy to spot (as you know too) - once pulling hand/arm exits water, the "hand flip/flick" happens due to hand moving from water to air, sending it over the hip triggering elbow creep and lift over torso (not swing out), and a decelerating hitch at hip. One of my pet peeves observing lap swimmers.

Coach Boomer carefully uses language of "ride the space in front", "slide forward", increase distance per cycle - he avoids using "glide" which is what is happening. Clearly, the word "glide" has been overloaded and butchered by others to the point of creating a negative connotation as if "glide" is some kind of a dirty word that causes deceleration. We all know it's neither the glide nor the arm anchored in front that causes deceleration, it's the "shape of the vessel" breaking down from pulling and kicking impulses, swimming from the outside-in.

We (TI) are essentially delivering the same message, core-driven, inside-out whole body movement driven forward, forward thinking (pun intended), but Boomer is using a different language and perspective. I'm not suggesting we use Boomer's language or drill, it's only another perspective to explain/support the "propulsion paradox" - propulsion is not necessarily generated from pushing water back, and now observation and research is beginning to prove that accepted theory is quite narrow and incomplete.

Stuart
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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I agree with Terry on this, for whatever it's worth. I understand that some theoretical points are being made with this drill, but swimming is a series of compromises between what we would like to do, because it is efficient, and what our anatomy will let us do.

If you recover with an extended arm (no bend at the elbow) your hand will have a lot more rotational inertia because it is further from your body. If this extended hand is not directly over the body (with stacked shoulders), but instead going out to the side somewhat, it will torque the body out of position, which hurts streamlining. So it is no surprise that Sam is swimming with stacked shoulders.

Stuart, you mentioned that, when he starts swimming full stroke, his body is flatter than in the drill, but his arm is still going pretty vertical to avoid torquing (and also to use forward momentum instead of sidewards momentum). The other person who recovers like this is Shelly Ripple, and she has a beautiful stroke. That said, you need very good shoulder flexibility to be able to swim like this. I tried it, and quickly discovered that it hurts my right shoulder (which is my bad one). By recovering with a bent elbow, you reduce that rotational inertia, and it makes it a lot easier on the shoulder. As far as using forward momentum, is this throwing the baby out with the bath water (pun intended)? Maybe, but to those who want to take advantage of this type of forward momentum, a word of caution may be in order. As Terry says, it looks like a shoulder injury waiting to happen.
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2015
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Hi Danny,

Correct, if the moment is directed from the shoulder, it's going to hurt and cause issues, as well as disconnecting from the hip. It's thrown or starts from the hip/pelvis, no pain or impingement issue. This swimmer (Sam) is at max rotation due more to drill mode, but nose/eyes are still pointing straight down, upper arm (humerus) is on same plane as back; whether forearm is in line with humerus or relaxed rag-doll like, elbow still swings away from body and leads the way (elbow lead) using momentum, not a lift from shoulder.

I have used a similar focus (without hip) to get swimmers to swing wide, elbow lead with a straight or extended foreman. Then maintain the high leading elbow (on scapular plane) as they slowly release forearm to a relaxed rag-doll position, dragging finger tips., i.e. 4 strokes extending (straight) arm, 4 strokes the let the forearm relax a bit, bending at elbow, then 4 strokes let forearm relax to fingertip drag. This helps prevent swimmers trying to muscle the elbow wide by lifting first or too early, promote swinging wide, elbow lead recovery.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 11-10-2015 at 10:46 PM.
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