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  #11  
Old 11-12-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Mike from NS
Default The child is father of the man

Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
And it gives us interesting insights:
- we loose our sense of 'I' - but we still exist! we are complete, we don't miss anything, actually we are better off than before. That can teach us that our usual reference to 'I' or our ego, is a rather fake identity. That in turn can help us not to take ourselves too seriously.
haschu,
Your story of skiing in your youth in Canada is so clear and so interesting. I can picture your experience as if I were there. You are clearly a very deep thinker.

Is your background in the cognitive sciences, perhaps psychology ... possibly as a professor?

Mike
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If you're not swimming; then you should be skiing......

Last edited by Mike from NS : 11-12-2009 at 01:10 AM.
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2009
terry terry is offline
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The book you're thinking of is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig. I read it in 1974 and it remains one of my all-time favorites. It's still close at hand on my bookshelf after 35 years and I have long meant to read it again. It would be only the 2nd book I've ever read twice. (Updike's Rabbit Run was the other - though I tried three times to read Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon without success.)
It was a combination of an on-the-road novel - like Kerouac - with a very deep consideration of philosophy, from the ancient Greeks to Zen Buddhism. Thanks for reminding me of it.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2009
terry terry is offline
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I must nominate this thread as one of the All Time Top 5.

And I must add it would be inconceivable that this would appear on any other swimming or triathlon forum.
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  #14  
Old 11-12-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
Is your background in the cognitive sciences, perhaps psychology ... possibly as a professor?
No, no. I am working in a software house. My only 'cognitive science' has me as object and me as subject ... oh ... ah ... somewhere in between is my wife ... ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP View Post
I don't seem to understand the problem, sorry.
Don't worry. It was just that the link you provided was linking to a facebook page and you need to have an account with facebook and log-in to get to the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
It was a combination of an on-the-road novel - like Kerouac - with a very deep consideration of philosophy, from the ancient Greeks to Zen Buddhism.
The regalia of the 68 generation. I can picture you with long hair and a nice flower decoration. :-)))
(would probably still suit you well and and immensely exhilarate your family)
Those were the days.

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Originally Posted by terry View Post
And I must add it would be inconceivable that this would appear on any other swimming or triathlon forum.
Certainly yes.
But just to mention it: it appears here in this forum only because you, Terry, are inviting it. It is your attitude that sets the the attitude of this forum.
Comes quite handy: it you want to know where you are at you can just look it up in your forum...

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-12-2009 at 10:57 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-12-2009
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I can picture you with long hair and a nice flower decoration. :-)))
I had a thick, but not long, red beard at times in the early 70s, but never long hair. Nor flowery clothes or even a flower decal on any of the 3 VWs I owned in succession ('66 microbus, '59 bug with canvas sunroof - which could only push-start, and '72 "superbeetle.") My self-identification as athlete probably foreclosed the possibility of thinking of myself as hippie.

I think I wore a set of beads for a few weeks while lifeguarding at Jones Beach in the summer of 73.

But that's another thread, probably on another forum.
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
But that's another thread, probably on another forum.
Detonation again, sorry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
You are clearly a very deep thinker.
Thanks, I think I know what you mean.
But - I regard myself less a deep thinker but more a deep observer.
And I think this is one of the aspects that we have in common here in TI and that is a major contribution to the special flavor of this forum.
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  #17  
Old 11-12-2009
vol vol is offline
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vol
Default semi-sleep/meditating state

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Another TI maxim is that pursuit of improvement is the highest, "purest" motivation in swimming -- indeed in any endeavor.
Swimmers will typically set personal goals in swimming on three levels:
1) Swim to learn. I can't swim now. I'd like to be able to swim and not drown.
2) Swim to exercise. Swim far enough, with sufficient ease, that I can get aerobic and other benefits. The farther I can swim, the fitter I can be.
3) Swim to improve. At this level, the goal of all swimming you do, pure and simple, is to improve your swimming. As you pursue improvement, your endurance, your speed, your enjoyment, your self-knowledge all improve as a natural - almost inevitable - result.
Terry, beside being able to swim long distance, I would also like to be able to achieve that semi-sleep state while swimming nonstop for 3k, 5k as mentioned in another thread at another forum. That seems to me quite a transcendental state, because swimming becomes a rest at the least, and can even be an opportunity to think about other things, just like meditating while walking: you don't even need to think about the activity (swimming/walking) itself, yet you will still be able to maintain perfect form and even pace. Should that count as Level 4?
(smillies, please)
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2009
elskbrev elskbrev is offline
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haschu33,

Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWP: "I don't seem to understand the problem, sorry." Don't worry. It was just that the link you provided was linking to a facebook page and you need to have an account with facebook and log-in to get to the target.
Here's the direct link, if you are interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/he...mind.html?_r=1 . Can't say I was--some psychobabble about dreams.

Just swim, people!

Just kidding. Thoroughly enjoyed meandering through all your meanderings in this post.

Off now to become one with the water...
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  #19  
Old 11-19-2009
madvet madvet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elk-tamer View Post
I think there's a difference between practicing struggle and practicing under stress. .....
Exactly, that is the major point that the calisthenics types don't get. (of course, some of the smarter ones do)

As we have found with the Tempo Trainer, making small incremental changes induces stress and avoids the struggles usually created by "just swimming harder"

Lots of great thoughts here.
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  #20  
Old 12-02-2009
as as is offline
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as
Default trying to go a little further

i don't think we're quite at the edge yet of the philosophical/existential aspects of swimming. perhaps we can try to stretch a little more without yet practicing survival.

our german friend asks the question of who - in the experience of egoless swimming - directs the swimming? he also helpfully and politely suggests to terry that his binary opposition (brain smart, body dumb) might be misleading (and i would guess a relic of the relentlessly binary Z&tAoMM).

and why is it worth it to attempt to experience egolessness or transcendence (while swimming or skiing or otherwise)? perhaps we could integrate this desire into a lovelier story about what we're trying to do - if only to reduce the echo of drug addicts talking about their most memorable highs.

the quest for an enlightenment can also be riddled with ego, greed, and consumerism. maybe it has to be, but also maybe acknowledging those riddles might serve the quest!

i'll offer one poorly considered beginning borrowing again from hasschu (nochmal danke). he says that this experience of egolessness can show us that our normal daily ego is "a fake identity" and that this important insight can affect our self-perception, help us to have a little more humor and a little less clinging to a rigid statue of ourselves.

perhaps we can evoke the complication a bit more and suppose that the daily chatty ego might not be "fake" but rather "figment" or "fragment". then the quest changes direction - from crushing ego to working with ego. this sounds much more like TI, like "art of imperfection", like the kinds of folks who would spend a lot of time to add 1% of efficiency to something that dolphins already do with 80% efficiency, people who emphasize perception, elegance, and enjoyment.

and perhaps we enjoy swimming so much because it offers a direct and highly physical experience that helps us INTEGRATE our perception of mind/body. that the will/observer-mind/beginner-mind, silly technicalities like raising your elbow to a certain angle, the sound of the water and the flow of the water over our skin, our breathing, all become an important focus of perception - instead of just the discursive head tethered to the beast-body. and this feels good! on many levels it feels good.

and the integrated good feeling (won't you stay with me, just a little longer) distinguish this swimming joy from the lesser good feeling of drugs or the lesser zombie-ism of fully automated muscle action.

elk-tamer - thanks for the TV line and eddie thanks for paraphrasing Buddha and Nietzsche in the same post : )
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