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  #11  
Old 05-28-2016
ti97
 
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if you drill by kicking on one side with an extended lower arm and a trailing upper arm, your beard will contact your outstreached arm whenever you look toward the pool bottom during a beathing cycle....
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  #12  
Old 05-28-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ti97 View Post
if you drill by kicking on one side with an extended lower arm and a trailing upper arm, your beard will contact your outstreached arm whenever you look toward the pool bottom during a beathing cycle....
This will happen if you are stacking your shoulders. In normal full stroke you shouldn't be rotating to that extent. But you are making an interesting point. It could be that the rash occurs as you look down (not as you breath) if you over-rotate.
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2016
haradoo
 
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Yeah, haradoo, sorry to ask again, but as it turns out when I tried to get into your description of "tucking" or "not tucking" there were at least 2 interpretations that I could see of what you're doing differently.

Are you rotating your neck to your shoulders less (and rotating your shoulders more, or at least timing it better) so your mouth gets to the same level on the waterline in time for breathing?

And/Or are you flexing your head and neck less (or not at all), so that the laser lead line coming out of the top of your skull remains almost parallel with your body axis, maybe even exactly in line with your body axis, extending down within your swim lane to the wall?
If you go back to the principles of TI, balance and body position, and most particularly, head position, I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.
I was tucking my chin downwards - caused two very common issues - 1. it made me swim less straight and 2. it decreased my bow wave, making breathing (especially on my weaker side) more difficult.
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  #14  
Old 05-29-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haradoo View Post
If you go back to the principles of TI, balance and body position, and most particularly, head position, I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.
I was tucking my chin downwards - caused two very common issues - 1. it made me swim less straight and 2. it decreased my bow wave, making breathing (especially on my weaker side) more difficult.
That's the part I'm not sure I understand exactly. What movement do you mean exactly, when you say "tucking"?

Let's assume you are in your incorrect "tucking" breathing position. Your shoulders are rotated to their full swing towards the breathing side, and your neck is also rotated to its fullest extent to that side, let's assume more or less with your mouth at waterline -- or maybe even above the waterline because of the trough behind the bow-wave -- maybe we should describe it as facing the horizon, or in the plane of the waterline at the horizon.

When you say "tucking your chin downwards" are you moving your head in the direction of the bottom of your chin, keeping the plane of the centre of your head in the same plane in space?

If that is the case, then the laser line from the top of your head will drift from straight forward to the end of the lane to a different position, near or below the bottom of the pool, and to the forward far right hand corner. Is that what you meant by "tucking"?
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  #15  
Old 05-30-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Wow, lots of responses but no definitive answers yet. Thanks, all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haradoo View Post
I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.
I'm not sure I agree:

When I stand facing a mirror and extend my right arm up as if at full extension of the stroke (lead arm position), the beard on the right side of my jaw (not chin) brushes the shoulder if I turn my head to the right--even if I keep my head perfectly level, with no tucking. In that position the shoulder is pretty close to the side of my head, so even a slight turning of the head to breathe brings light contact. This contact is even more likely when I get a strong, full extension of the arm.

I don't think it's evidence of over-rotating either, because as I raise my arm facing the mirror, my body is almost completely flat, with no rotation.

I think for me the most likely answer is that it may happen with a delayed return to face-down position after taking a breath. If that's so, I should be able to eliminate it by turning my head back face-down immediately after each breath, which would probably be a good habit to get into anyway.

But after checking in the mirror, I think it also indicates a good head position with no lifting as I breathe. Also, the anecdotal report that Terry had the same thing happen makes me think it just be a result of good form for some people depending on individual body geometry.
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  #16  
Old 05-30-2016
haradoo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Wow, lots of responses but no definitive answers yet. Thanks, all.



I'm not sure I agree:

When I stand facing a mirror and extend my right arm up as if at full extension of the stroke (lead arm position), the beard on the right side of my jaw (not chin) brushes the shoulder if I turn my head to the right--even if I keep my head perfectly level, with no tucking. In that position the shoulder is pretty close to the side of my head, so even a slight turning of the head to breathe brings light contact. This contact is even more likely when I get a strong, full extension of the arm

I don't think it's evidence of over-rotating either, because as I raise my arm facing the mirror, my body is almost completely flat, with no rotation.

I think for me the most likely answer is that it may happen with a delayed return to face-down position after taking a breath. If that's so, I should be able to eliminate it by turning my head back face-down immediately after each breath, which would probably be a good habit to get into anyway.

But after checking in the mirror, I think it also indicates a good head position with no lifting as I breathe. Also, the anecdotal report that Terry had the same thing happen makes me think it just be a result of good form for some people depending on individual body geometry.
I know what you mean Tom, but - at no point would you have your right arm extended and be breathing to the right, unless in a drill no?
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  #17  
Old 05-30-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haradoo View Post
I know what you mean Tom, but - at no point would you have your right arm extended and be breathing to the right, unless in a drill no?
I'll watch the next time I swim. I still think it might be happening after the breath, but before I turn my head back down. So I might be delaying the move to return my face to the water after breathing on my right side?
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  #18  
Old 05-30-2016
haradoo
 
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Ok fair enough - I think you may be right about the delayed breath - another massive breakthrough for me (i have plenty to go!) was learning to be comfortable spending less time breathing - it was more a claustrophobia thing.
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  #19  
Old 05-31-2016
ti97
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I'll watch the next time I swim. I still think it might be happening after the breath, but before I turn my head back down. So I might be delaying the move to return my face to the water after breathing on my right side?
remember suzanne or someone mentioning 'admiring their recovery arm' on a breath? the discussion was related to timing as I recall....
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  #20  
Old 05-31-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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watch from 7min 20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anix...77DE2C8EAC3FE4
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