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  #1  
Old 05-03-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default How does a cross over kick feel?

I was trying some dryland kicking. leg hip arm connection stuff and when doing a 6bk lying on the side, the dynamics of the leg and hip movement automatically resulted in crossoverkick where the bounce back from the main kick sends the top of front of one foot to the back of the other, touching at the midline.
Quite a cool kick which is a nice symmetrical medium between 6Bk and 2BK.
Havent tried it in the water but if anybody wants to know hoe it (probably) feels, try doing a 6bK on your side on a mattras, driving bodyrotation by a straigtish leg kick, using the legs mass to rotate the hips (and attached rest of the trunc)

A neat little article about the use of this kick
http://1vigor.com/article/swim-kick-...ue-cross-over/

While you are on your side, its easy to test your hip flexor flexibility.
Can the upperleg move freely across the symmetry plane between front and backside, or is it always moving in front of this plane?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-03-2016 at 10:56 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Gettting interested in the cross over kick lately. A niche technique in freestyle and certainly in backstroke.
Never realy realised its actuallu a crossover kick that Irie uses in backstroke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

Best known cross over kicker in freestyle from the old days. (at least that I know)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DSNeNMc6w

. At low strokerates a 2BK sometimes feels as too litlle and a 6BK almost always feels as as too much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDiJdsMll7o

Only scratched the surface with it in backstroke, but looks like fun trying it with freestyle.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-26-2016 at 06:58 PM.
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2016
descending descending is offline
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Hard to translate how or why it works the way it does, but it just does. I think it's more b/c of the loping stroke mixed stroke timing. If you have done a lot of sprinting I believe it will make more sense, but most if not all people don't use any shoulder driven timing in the adult onset distance focus world.

It really just kind of happens if someone asked me to to 'do a cross over kick cycle for me' I'm not sure I could do it with a pure hip driven stroke b/c I'd end up trying to do something unnatural. A 6 beat is auto-pilot for me in a more balanced hip driven on both sides. In the lope the quick catch shoulder driven side just happens so fast and that kick is part of the leverage up and over the 'barrel' and then I don't even think about my hip driven side it's just a toe flick.

For years I had no idea this kick even existed it just manifested itself, but I digress it's nothing new this is a very common stroke in the pool racing world. Assymetrical stroke timing and kick.
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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If you use a 2BK in backstroke you often have some sort of gap after the kick.
You want to lenghten the effect of that kick basically and there is where the extra kick comes in more or less naturally.
I think that if your leg kick is more efficient and longer the urge for that extra kick is less.
In freestyle it looks more like a bounce back effect that is accentuated now that bounce is present more or less for free.
Agree that it is a bit artificial to try it if it doesnt come naturally, but whats the harm in trying out a new little dance?
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2016
descending descending is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
If you use a 2BK in backstroke you often have some sort of gap after the kick.
You want to lenghten the effect of that kick basically and there is where the extra kick comes in more or less naturally.
I think that if your leg kick is more efficient and longer the urge for that extra kick is less.
In freestyle it looks more like a bounce back effect that is accentuated now that bounce is present more or less for free.
Agree that it is a bit artificial to try it if it doesnt come naturally, but whats the harm in trying out a new little dance?
No harm at all I was just trying to articulate what I feel since I can't really explain how to do it. I guess if I had to say how to try it would be try to lope some for the heck of it. If you have a good 6 beat which I do in both free and back it's just kind of natural for me to let that hip driven side toe flick . Have fun with it!
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  #6  
Old 05-27-2016
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I have noticed Paltrinieri does this cross over kick too and he's a distance swimmer. I thought it was the oddest thing when I picked up on it at the recent Euro champs in London.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cox9LKGuZQ4

You can see it from about 4:22

Also evident at the Euros was the amount of butterfly swimmers who breathe to the side to stay as low to the water and as flat as possible. The elites really try to avoid an undulating wave action with their body as it creates more drag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRPXCCDEH-Q

I find the unorthodox fascinating. Give it a few years and yesterdays unorthodox will be tomorrows normal.
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I also wouldnt be totally surprised if side breathing became a trend suddenly in butterfly. Swimming is full of weird and unnatural actions.
I dont know much about fly, but getting a very low breath every stroke sidebreathing against one breath on 2 trokes with a low and a high head stroke doesnt seems to bad an idea.
We have seen al kinds of coaches wisdoms over the years that have become fools errands 10 years later, so why would todays wisdom stand forever?
The basics dont change that much though. Good swimmers form 50 years ago still look good.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-27-2016 at 11:59 AM.
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  #8  
Old 05-30-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I was trying some dryland kicking. leg hip arm connection stuff and when doing a 6bk lying on the side, the dynamics of the leg and hip movement automatically resulted in crossoverkick where the bounce back from the main kick sends the top of front of one foot to the back of the other, touching at the midline.
Quite a cool kick which is a nice symmetrical medium between 6Bk and 2BK.
Havent tried it in the water but if anybody wants to know hoe it (probably) feels, try doing a 6bK on your side on a mattras, driving bodyrotation by a straigtish leg kick, using the legs mass to rotate the hips (and attached rest of the trunc)

A neat little article about the use of this kick
http://1vigor.com/article/swim-kick-...ue-cross-over/


While you are on your side, its easy to test your hip flexor flexibility.
Can the upperleg move freely across the symmetry plane between front and backside, or is it always moving in front of this plane?
The authors of this article strongly recommend the two beat crossover kick for triathletes who fall into the naturally high turnover swimmer camp, for efficiency reasons. This would include me. I have just barely learned to do something I should have mastered as a basic skill -- efficient body rotation control using the core alone. *sigh*, too much information. OK, how do I start to learn it, just try to copy it?
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
The basics dont change that much though. Good swimmers form 50 years ago still look good.
This reminds me to a recent podcast from Gerry Rodrigues where he mentions some of the overrated things today. For instance, every article out of 3 on the internet is about EVF. EVF wasn't there 30 years ago, but elite distance swimmers already swam 15mins over 1500 without it. The same applies to other details like the crossover kick or the side breathing in butterfly etc.

About Irie's kick, it's beautiful, I love it but I'm afraid it works only for him. In particular the leg timing is opposite to all the other backstrokers one: the upkick and downkick don't aid body rotation, actually they're against it. It's a shoulder driven stroke.

Salvo
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  #10  
Old 05-31-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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I'll have to agree with Gerry, EVF is overrated, more "in vogue", than functional.

Likewise with a cross-over kick. A kick pattern that is generally known as an error; given an elite swimmer has a cross-over kick, doesn't mean it's "in vogue" for the rest of the swimming community.

Stuart
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