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Old 03-13-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
Default TI version of a Gerry Rodrigues set

This thread follows up a conversation started in the last page of this thread.

I'm sharing this set because I'm loving it. To recap, here is the original set:

3 rounds of
- 20x25m fast (zone 5) with 10s rest
- 400m aerobic (zone 2)

Not sure what Gerry Rodrigues exactly means by zone 5 and 2. Anyway my interpretation is: do the 25's as fast as you can given the tight rests. Set a target pace like in USRPT (eg 20s for 25m). And do the 400's at a moderate aerobic effort (it's not an easy recovery set).

Here is my TI version of the set:

1) swim the 25's with TT and chose ONE (not many) SR/SPL combo to match the target pace (eg 19SPL/66SPM for 20s/25m is a good combo for me), then commit to swim all the reps with the same metrics, observe how steady your stroke is while fatigue starts to build and how many times you miss the target pace (fails).

2) once you can complete all the rounds with zero fails, consider the previous set as the stage 1 of a process (or game) and move to stage 2: translate the mastered pace to the 50's and swim the 25's a bit faster. For instance:

- 10x50m with 15s rest at 19SPL/66SPM
- 400m aerobic (no TT, swim by feel and pace it evenly)
- 2x (20x25 with 10s rest at 19SPL/68SPM + 400m aerobic

Once you get zero fails in both the 50's and 25's move to stage 3:

- 10x75m with 20s rest at 19SPL/66SPM + 400m aerobic
- 10x50m with 15s rest at 19SPL/68SPM + 400m aerobic
- 20x25m with 10s rest at 19SPL/70SPM + 400m aerobic

Once you get zero fails, test your best 400 and close a cycle. In the meanwhile the aerobic 400's should benefit from the process and improve as well.

I'm currently at the end of stage 1. Note that I'm swimming the 25's with a middle/long distance technique (breathe every 2 strokes, light 2bk or light 6bk). The idea is to improve mostly over 400m & up, this is not a training for shorter distances.

Another reason why I like this set is that I find it much technique oriented: the 25's are a perfect workbench to focus on the stroke, since you take turns out of the equation and all the pushoff are equal. For instance, I'm doing these sets breathing every 2 strokes and switching side (and first uw pull) on every length. When I breathe to my weak side I sometimes have to add the 20th stroke or kick a bit stronger to hold 19SPL. The 25's are highlighting this subtle asymmetry (I usually breathe to both sides without noticing much difference).

So you basically work on speed, endurance and technique within the same session. That's one of Gerry Rodrigues trade marks by the way.

Regards,
Salvo
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Old 03-14-2016
terry terry is offline
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Salvo
Thanks for sharing your very thoughtful, efficiency-focused approach to the Rodrigues set which I am sure is purely a 'limbs, lungs, and muscles' oriented workout.

I'll do a version in the next day or two and post it on my Zero Cancer Swimming thread. I'll put a link here when I do it. And link back to this thread in my post.
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Old 03-14-2016
terry terry is offline
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PS: Salvo, do I recall correctly that you're in Italy?
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Old 03-15-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Thanks for the feedback Terry!

I'm curious to read your version of the set and your thoughts then.

By the way, in the meanwhile I did the first session at stage 2: I was pleased with the 50's but not with the 25's at new pace.
In the 50's I succeded the planned 10x50m on 1 minute coming at 41.81s: TT=66SPM, 46 total beeps (5 beeps for turn+pushoff), steady 19SPL for the first 7 reps, then 19-20SPL in the last 3 reps but I touched the wall at the 46th beep anyway.
In the 25's at new pace (19SPL/68SPM) instead I quickly failed: I almost always needed the 20th stroke and one more beep (ie 0.88s).

The next time I'll add another customization to the set to better adapt to the 25's at new pace: I'll temporarily allow some more rest (15-20s instead of 10s) and see how it goes. Then reduce the rests again to 10s once the pace is ingrained.

By the way, here is a question for Suzanne: in the other thread you wrote

I have a protocol to help determine your VO2 max swim pace or you could simply swim all out for 5-6 minutes and use that pace as your target 25 pace, while being aware of your SPL

I'm interested to this protocol, what do you mean by swim all out for 5-6 minutes? What distances and how much rest in between? Or do you mean 5-6 minutes continuously? If you mean continuously, my pace would certainly be slower than 20s per length.


Terry, all the best for your health issues,

Salvo

PS: yes, I'm in Italy
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Old 03-15-2016
terry terry is offline
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Salvo
The answer may simply be fatigue.
If your priority is to keep your standard high on the short reps, then something's got to give
1) Fewer of them
2) Do the 400 at a pure recovery pace
3) Revisit the speed work less frequently.

When I do an 'ambitious' set -- i.e. metrics that are pretty near the threshold of which I'm capable -- I allow 48 to 72 hrs of recovery before attempting again.

I've had advice from two different, highly respected, human performance experts that physically demanding training bouts should allow for 48 to 72 hours of recovery. Any swimming I do between them is purely for recovery.
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Old 03-15-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
By the way, here is a question for Suzanne: in the other thread you wrote

I have a protocol to help determine your VO2 max swim pace or you could simply swim all out for 5-6 minutes and use that pace as your target 25 pace, while being aware of your SPL

I'm interested to this protocol, what do you mean by swim all out for 5-6 minutes? What distances and how much rest in between? Or do you mean 5-6 minutes continuously? If you mean continuously, my pace would certainly be slower than 20s per length.
yes, 5-6 minutes swim continous...for you I'm guessing 300m would be close as 400 m is longer than 6 minutes. Maybe 350m as fast as you can. You can use this as your Vo2 pace and calcualte how many seconds you should be able to cover 25m at your Vo2 pace. Repeated short bouts of Vo2 pace with very short recovery can help you sustain a Vo2 effort for a longer period of time than continuous swimming can. ie...you're able to do more than 350m as 25m @ pace with short rest, repeat as many times as you're holding form & pace.

Veronica billat has done a lot of studies with this type of protocol but at a 30sec on/ 30 sec recovery pattern.

So if you're swimming faster than that, you're getting into an anaerobic territry and your swim starts to resemble a Tabata protocol.

here's the cool thing...most of them should stimulate endurance performance.

As Terry said, there is no need to do this type of training more often than every 72 hours. In fact, for my cyclists & triathletes (I've had multiple state champion cyclists using these training tips) I only do this once per week.

The recovery inbetween is really, really, really important.

It's a cool set, but i'd suggest making it your weekly set, and on the other sessions in between use some variation of what you've discovered to create aerobic/recovery pace swims while focusing on technique, and at least one session a week that is purely skill focused, short repeats (including pushoffs only and 3 strokes, 5 strokes and stop) that help imprint areas you need to improve.

i'll use the times you posted in your other thread to crunch some numbers and see what other insights I could help you with, if you are receptive to them. :)

Thanks for sharing.
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  #7  
Old 03-16-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hi Terry and Suzanne,
yes, actually I had less than 24 hours of rest and I'm not even used to swim everyday, so I probably was not in my best shape. I usually swim 3 times per week so I always have 48 to 72 hours of rest in between and I feel like I can do "ambitious" sets on every session without particular issues.

Anyway, as planned, today (after 48h) I repeated the same session extending the recoveries between the 25's from 10 TT beeps (9s) to 20 beeps (18s). It felt like resting forever, I succeeded all the sets at steady 19SPL, never needed to add a stroke and I also was able to downshift from 6bk to 2bk when breathing to my non favourite side and still hit target times and target stroke count. In short, I felt great :)

The next time I'll try resting 15 beeps. My intention is to follow the process I described above (where I'm currently at stage 2), so I think I'll be doing these kind of sets 3 times a week (ie 48-72hrs rest in between), eventually expanding/compressing the recovery times to adapt to new paces. Let's see how it goes.

Suzanne, indeed your insights and opions are always welcome, same for Terry of course. Here are some more numbers to crunch, the picture of me on January before stopping swimming for 1 month:

SCM (all from a pushoff)
3000m 50:00 (pace per 100m 1:40)
1500m 24:15 (pace 1:37)
800m 12:49 (pace 1:36)
400m 6:12 (pace 1:33)
200m 2:59 (pace 1:30)
100m 1:22.5
75m 60.83
50m 39.16
25m 17.36
25m kick in slightly under 30s (with a snorkel)

And in that time I used to do only css + aerobic sets 3 times a week (1h20' per session).

Now I'm going toward something more usrpt oriented. Short term goal is improving on the 400s, then on the 800s, then 1500 and so on. Speed first endurance second.

Best regards,
Salvo
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  #8  
Old 03-18-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Terry and Suzanne,
yes, actually I had less than 24 hours of rest and I'm not even used to swim everyday, so I probably was not in my best shape. I usually swim 3 times per week so I always have 48 to 72 hours of rest in between and I feel like I can do "ambitious" sets on every session without particular issues.

Anyway, as planned, today (after 48h) I repeated the same session extending the recoveries between the 25's from 10 TT beeps (9s) to 20 beeps (18s). It felt like resting forever, I succeeded all the sets at steady 19SPL, never needed to add a stroke and I also was able to downshift from 6bk to 2bk when breathing to my non favourite side and still hit target times and target stroke count. In short, I felt great :)

The next time I'll try resting 15 beeps. My intention is to follow the process I described above (where I'm currently at stage 2), so I think I'll be doing these kind of sets 3 times a week (ie 48-72hrs rest in between), eventually expanding/compressing the recovery times to adapt to new paces. Let's see how it goes.

Suzanne, indeed your insights and opions are always welcome, same for Terry of course. Here are some more numbers to crunch, the picture of me on January before stopping swimming for 1 month:

SCM (all from a pushoff)
3000m 50:00 (pace per 100m 1:40)
1500m 24:15 (pace 1:37)
800m 12:49 (pace 1:36)
400m 6:12 (pace 1:33)
200m 2:59 (pace 1:30)
100m 1:22.5
75m 60.83
50m 39.16
25m 17.36
25m kick in slightly under 30s (with a snorkel)

And in that time I used to do only css + aerobic sets 3 times a week (1h20' per session).

Now I'm going toward something more usrpt oriented. Short term goal is improving on the 400s, then on the 800s, then 1500 and so on. Speed first endurance second.

Best regards,
Salvo
I'll take a look at all your times here, been busy at work and just reading along. I guess you'll know the results of what your training plan is doing by just carrying on. But from a coaching perspective neither your old nor your new seems like the fastest route forward to me. Just putting that out as a statement so that next time around when you do something more blended and more blended and get even faster I can say "I told you so" :-)

More importantly though is that you are engaged in and enjoying your work right now and it seems that you are!
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #9  
Old 05-11-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'll take a look at all your times here, been busy at work and just reading along. I guess you'll know the results of what your training plan is doing by just carrying on. But from a coaching perspective neither your old nor your new seems like the fastest route forward to me. Just putting that out as a statement so that next time around when you do something more blended and more blended and get even faster I can say "I told you so" :-)

More importantly though is that you are engaged in and enjoying your work right now and it seems that you are!
Ok Suzanne, you told me so :-)
After a reasonable amount of time I can conclude that doing only the afore-mentioned kind of sets (with subtle variations on pace and resting times) 3 times a week doesn't give me back that aerobic base I had when I used to consistently do threshold and aerobic sets. And I feel I need that aerobic fitness to swim a faster 400 (not only a faster 1500 & up).
So I'm steering toward something more blended as you suggested: having 3 (sometimes 4) days a week available for swimming (1h20' per session), I'm alternating between endurance oriented sessions, threshold oriented sessions and usrpt oriented sessions.

Today for instance, after a brief warmup I did the following rewarding endurance set:

4000m as 10x25 + 10x50 + 10x75 + 10x100 + 10x75 + 10x50 + 10x25

The goal was to swim the whole set at the same pace, same rests, same SR and same SPL. First half of the set with a front snorkel (to better tune a good form), 2nd half normal swimming.
I chose to set TT at 61SPM and commit to hold 20SPL for a resulting pace of 1:38/100m, which for me is a good target pace for a 4k. 10 beeps rests, but in the final 10x25 I gradually reduced to 2 beeps because 10 felt too many. The toughest part has been during the 100's and the following 75's, anyway I managed to keep the pace and succeeded the set.
I found it a rewarding set to train aerobic capacity and focus on technique at the same time.

Salvo
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