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  #1  
Old 11-17-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default Fixing the grip

Hello,

Ron's posts in "How to integrate..." lead me opening a new thread about the grip in water. Sure (myself) adding power is not the right way. Hope I'll get some hints here how to add.

Maybe some you know my problem (well, it's only one of many...). I'm, a slow stroker (comfortable from TT 1.4-1.7). There is a minimal (felt) arm velocity to get the feeling water becomes thick and get a grip. Not sure, but I think this is the arm velocity when the moving hand/arm causes light turbulence. (And it's an amayzing drill to swim some laps so slow that you just do not feel the grip...) But when shortening the SR to approximately 1.15-1.2, without taking up too many strokes for me the feel starts I become a soda machine and and adding more force/power into stroke has no effect in more pace but than losing energy.

OK, I become more tensed with this SRs and surely best streamline will be not really best as (felt) for 1.4. But there must be a solution how to add more force/power without just losing it.

Terry once wrote, building the catch should happen as slow and forceless as possible and the push/stroke as fast as possible. But I'm sure there is some extreme tiny non linear accerleration adjustment between falling into catch and fastest possible push that will make a real big difference in pace.

Are there any metaphors, drills, analogies or researches how to focus in that? Or have we just to get used of higher SRs and it will happen some time ... or never?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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My perception of grip in relation to swim speed:

zero to low speed slower than 2.30 min/100m: little grip, water is thin and flowing around the arm/hand.
little more speed 2.30-2 min/100m: little more grip
little more speed:2-1.30 min/100m optimal grip (best DPS)
max speed 1.10/100m( only for 25 m) loosing traction, arm traction starts breaking away. Massive drag felt on body.

For better swimmers this window of optimal traction seems to shift to higher speeds. Maybe real good swimmers can find traction at any speed. Dont know very good swimmers.

If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.

If the basic movement patterns are right there is no absolute need for a super sensitive touch. There will be not much slippage even when swimming a bit rough or jerky.But smooth movements delay the breakaway limit a bit.
When I imagine my hand and forearm attached to a plank and thinking of sticking that plank in the mud and pulling the body past and over it, I get the best tractiion, even if there isnt a plank.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-17-2014 at 04:07 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Zenturtle,

thanks for your answer. My optimal traction lies between 1:45-2:10min/100m. But it seems to break down totally below 1:40. (I'm aware that are slow speeds (in absolute terms) - Suzanne's recovery...)

Quote:
If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.
Well, I hope my drag/streamline is not cause of that gripless hole. The traction surface of hand/arm will be constant (more or less) and yes, how can I build the gradually right pressure before loosing ideal traction? Think it's similar as a mirrorpoint to the slowest stroke where you just can feel traction starts. Think it shouldn't be a jerk, more gently but forcefully acceleration with maximum force applyed just at the last stroke cm. But how to adjust this?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Werner, I suggest you practice sculling to gain a more perceptive feel for the water. You also have to remember that the feel for catch is not only felt at the arm, but from the hip too. Otherwise it is just a pull. Underswitch is an invaluable exercise for this. More hip drive means more power, but you have to able to transmit that via your arm, so you need to develop that relationship.
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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yep, for basic feel for the water with the arms and hands I too would say Scull drils.
Not ideal to overthink this, Better let the body learn by itself after a lot of sculling praxtice. Most important to make an underwater arm movement that gives some resisitive surface area, Thats not an horizontal arm with a dropped elbow.

Anoter more TI like view on slipping is timing between armpull and body rotation.
If you are working against bodyrotation your pull will feel slippery, lost and tiring.
The basic movement where the pull is buitl upon is the rotating treelog.
The pull must fit in the rolling rhytm of the treelog just like the push of a swing at the right moment.
A bad timed pull feels just as waisted and energy sapping as a swing push thats totally off.
A lot od swimmers can swim fast without a big atm surface (with closed fists), so its not only about hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ra4JL8Jfk

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-17-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Werner,

I don't usually get very much below 2 min/100 m, so my comments may have limited relevance, but here they are, for whatever they are worth.

First, I can remember only being able to swim at much slower speeds than I now swim at, and I can ask myself what changed between then and now. It certainly wasn't the conscious force I was applying to the water. On the contrary, it sometimes seems to me that, as my speed has increased, my effort and force has, if anything decreased.

One might argue that the explanation for what I experienced is that, when my technique was much worse than it is now, streamlining was the major way to improve. Clearly at some point, streamlining starts to become optimized and then one can only increase speed by working harder. If so, my question is: At what speed does this trade-off start to occur? It probably depends on body type, but, for a body like mine (1.8m, 68kg) when have I started to optimize streamlining so that I need to start focussing more on the effort side? Is it at about 2 min./100m? Any thoughts?
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello,

thank you very much for your answers. But still some replies...

@ Janos,
Quote:
Hi Werner, I suggest you practice sculling to gain a more perceptive feel for the water. You also have to remember that the feel for catch is not only felt at the arm, but from the hip too. Otherwise it is just a pull. Underswitch is an invaluable exercise for this. More hip drive means more power, but you have to able to transmit that via your arm, so you need to develop that relationship.
Not sure, if sculling drills are are right for what I'd call (higher tempos - 1.2s TT). Honestly, I don't know how to do them for fitting there. Involving the hips. This sounds worth some tries. Can you give some points of edge I have to focus in to get it right. So, when this relation does not fit right, you'll never get a good grip at higher rates... How to find the (varying?) relationships for different SRs? And how to avoid over rotating, when adding more power to hips rotation, when the body still is a log?

@ Zenturtle,
same above questions. I do have a most times good feeling for rotation and grip in my slower SRs. (OK, this feeling may be misleading and still bad. It's very subjective.) But today I swam some ATPs and tweaked the TT down until strokerange run out of my green zone. This happened first at 1.14s and second time at 1.12s. SR jumped from 19-18 to 21-23.

Hmmm just think about to swim some ATPs with closed fists...

(BTW what's atm surface?)


@ Danny,
Quote:
I don't usually get very much below 2 min/100 m, so my comments may have limited relevance, but here they are, for whatever they are worth.
I'm glad too if most of my times after pooltime show pace below 2min/100m (especially when swam in LCM...) And every answer is worthful for me. There is one out there helping me to think in an other direction what ever it is.

Quote:
If so, my question is: At what speed does this trade-off start to occur? It probably depends on body type, but, for a body like mine (1.8m, 68kg) when have I started to optimize streamlining so that I need to start focussing more on the effort side? Is it at about 2 min./100m? Any thoughts?
Bit jealous about your body shape (63y, 1.86m, 105kg(!?)) it's the same sticking point I am sometimes. I guess Terry's answer will be: Every work in streamline and ballance will pay off more than thinking how to add power.

So in my case adding more power in form of higher SRs leads into something I'd call a gripless gap. So I'd like not to add power but would like to apply it in the right way. How to do? 1.2s is a SR where I don't know anymore if there is anything to focus on than getting the stroke completed at next bong...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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atm is arm.
Dont you have video footage. Its a bit a waiste of words only going by your perception.
I guess you are entering to close to the centerline and pulling with dropped elbows.
The coinnection of the pull with body rotation is fixed for a wide range of strokerates.
You are used to very low strokerates. 55-60 strokes/min is still a low strokerate in a non TI world. Cettainly not a rate that is associated with spinning , flailing etc.
Sculling ingrains arm positions that give optimal traction. At any strokerate or speed.

For a mental image. Normally a good traction feels like the arm is laying on a thin layer of ice, Giving more resistance than expected.
If you pull too fast, jerky or out of sync with bodyrotation your arm will break through the thin ice layer and shoot down without traction.
Another example is pulling a car with a very thin rope that is not very strong.
A snooth long pull can get the car going, then follow up going gradually to the next pull etc to keep the car rolling.. Pulling too fast or uncontrolled and the rope will break.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-18-2014 at 10:38 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post

So in my case adding more power in form of higher SRs leads into something I'd call a gripless gap. So I'd like not to add power but would like to apply it in the right way. How to do? 1.2s is a SR where I don't know anymore if there is anything to focus on than getting the stroke completed at next bong...

Best regards,
Werner
Werner, all I have to offer is stuff you've probably heard before, but I was thinking about your question this morning when I was swimming. It seems to me that part of this is feeling the water, but I think of it more as knowing that your arm and hand are in a position to pull back, not down, when you want to work them. I find that some swimming with my hands closed in a fist helps with this. I also find that timing my rotation so that my shoulder is up before I pull back is critical. Finally, I find that an emphasis on accomplishing as much of the work with body rotation and also shoulder rotation helps make the stroke easier. By shoulder rotation I mean that your shoulders are moving forward and backward to power your stroke as your body rotates. All of this is old stuff, but as you increase the stroke rate, you start to tense up and wind up trying to do more with your arms than with your body. Your timing also starts to get rough.

So in summary, for me the problem is executing these things at a higher stroke rate as well as I can execute them at a lower stroke rate. This seems like a problem of training your nervous system to execute the same movements faster. This is a different problem from feeling a good grip on the water, so I don't know if any of this is relevant to you...

Will be interested to hear what others have to say.
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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BINGO!

You are on the right track.
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