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  #1  
Old 05-25-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
Default Right... The Catch

I always felt that something smelled fishy about my swim. I couldn't "point the finger" on it until today when I fixed my catch.
This photo below is what I was not doing. I was joining the elbow with the forearm on its move backwards. Rookie mistake.
After starting to move the elbow forward during the catch, I sensed for the first time in my life how the forearm pushes water molecules in a delicate and precise way. Same as Terry was describing his sensation during the catch. The forearm was freed from the limitations imposed by the elbow.
The whole body suddenly got lose and I got that floating easy sense on the water. I tested some strong catches and they got me some big propulsions.
I guess TI students learn that in the first lesson. I learned it last... :) a donkey
My body had a totally new sensation of ease and floating lazy. I guess that I stopped using muscles (shoulder and torso) to support the awkward stroke. For a change I might be advancing in the right way.

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Last edited by swimust : 05-25-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
I always felt that something smelled fishy about my swim. I couldn't "point the finger" on it until today when I fixed my catch.
This photo below is what I was not doing. I was joining the elbow with the forearm on its move backwards. Rookie mistake.
After starting to move the elbow forward during the catch, I sensed for the first time in my life how the forearm pushes water molecules in a delicate and precise way. Same as Terry was describing his sensation during the catch. The forearm was freed from the limitations imposed by the elbow.
The whole body suddenly got lose and I got that floating easy sense on the water. I tested some strong catches and they got me some big propulsions.
I guess TI students learn that in the first lesson. I learned it last... :) a donkey
My body had a totally new sensation of ease and floating lazy. I guess that I stopped using muscles (shoulder and torso) to support the awkward stroke. For a change I might be advancing in the right way.

Most beautiful post you have ever written. You are now learning TI. :)

Did it feel like silk?
http://steelcityendurance.com/swimmi...g-silky-magic/
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Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #3  
Old 05-26-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Thank god for this link!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne in her blog
...The key was in waiting, and during that waiting time, the palm is applying that oh-so-gentle pressure that I’ve heard about, as the body rotates and continues to move forward…but what follows feels like silky magic, rather than the big arm of water I’d had before.
I lost the feeling today at the pool because... I was not waiting the weight of the entering side to drop more and I was starting the catch too soon.
Your blog may have saved my swim just because of the quote above about waiting.
Losing the correct catch is just a typical newbie event. We are not aware enough of all the nuances and we pay the next day... :(
That's why putting everything in text and explaining everything is so important.
If it wasn't for your blog then I may have not fixed that in the future. Next time I will wait a bit for the body to drop more, and only then will start to find the silk (the catch) :)
I have to feel the right moment when the forearm can hold itself without any outside help, and then start the catch.
I am feeling it just by imagining it while sitting in front of the PC.

This forum is worth something after all ;)
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Last edited by swimust : 05-26-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Most beautiful post you have ever written. You are now learning TI. :)

Did it feel like silk?
http://steelcityendurance.com/swimmi...g-silky-magic/
Back from second pool session of the day, needed to solve the catch.
I was already "waiting" when my catch failed this morning, but I was not "slightly engaging the palm".
I tried (as a test) to catch with a totally loose palm and its impossible, the forearm muscles start to work when the palm is totally loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji
My palm is mainly relaxed, and slightly engaged to keep the shape.
I have a radical change of understanding since yesterday when Richard made an effort to convince the donkey that he got it in reversed order: The arm should lead the body rotation, not the other way around as mr. donkey thought...
I always thought that "rotate the body just enough" is about how much propulsion I need for high SR or low SR, I didn't understand that its "just enough according to what the stroking arm needs". I was doing: "accellerate the arm just enough to suit the best body rotation you can create..." :) donkey logic.
I don't know on what to work next. Any ideas?
I counted a comfortable 15 SPL on 25M but its all dodgy and not solid yet. No problem doing a slow legit 10 SPL.
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Last edited by swimust : 05-26-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi swimust

You obviously must be doing lots of things right if you can do a comfortable 15 strokes in a 25-m pool and a legitimate 10 with long glides.

Could it be that you are obsessing too much about minor details and not keeping the basic principles in mind always?

Still, attention to detail is a good thing.
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2013
dprevish dprevish is offline
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dprevish
Default The catch

Swimust,

Today in the pool I was able to get a little insight on what I think that you and the link that Coach Suzanne have expounded upon:
I was doing 100 and 200 yd repeats and feeling very unstable and like I was "yanking" water and no really going anywhere. Then I started another 100 yd and got something more pleasant as a feel for the water. Though I have not heard of the focal point of moving the elbow forward, I will think of this next time in the pool. Maybe this will help me recapture what I sensed.
But what It was like was a feeling that I was swinging from side to side. My arm felt..."deep" in the water. It was as if my whole arm was reaching around something big, like it was slipping around something round and large. Instead of the feeling of my pulling energy starting as I started my catch, it was as if it was delayed and the pulling sensation was as my whole arm was right under my body. Anyone and everyone; Is this it?
Coach Suzanne you had posted a exert from you article and you said something that caught my interest, that it was like a press up out of the pool. That was it! I was not counting strokes, but it felt like my legs were more "along for the ride" and surprisingly my breathing was easy. This was surprising because I actually expected the feeling of my arm going so deep would pull me down under, but it did not.
As so much of my practice, I could not maintain the new feeling from lap to lap...it came in and out as I swam. After the last lap that felt right, I decided to quit while I still had it in my head.
I've also read and heard that the laterals should be engaged in efficient swimming; right now as I type I can feel a bit of wear in them, they feel tired, like they got worked.
Sometimes I wish two things:
One that I had a pool outside my house that I could jump in several times a day to keep ingraining the things that I feel are progressing me, and two that I had a 50 meter pool as I stink at flip turns so when I do them it takes me four or five strokes to get myself balanced again.
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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@ dprevish,
Yes I think that what you found is the feeling of the catch. It also 'comes and goes' for me, I do it for only two days. Its important to move the elbow forward even if you lose the silky feeling. Its still much much better than "adding" the elbow to the forearm movement. If you add the elbow, you push a 'wall of water' like CSuzanne said, and you engage the shoulder, and...the torso.

Try 'open turns' instead of flip turns. I do only open turns because I can get dizzy when I flip, and I am turning fast in open turns. Its not slow at all. Just needs repetitions to learn it. Maybe its not "cool" but its very efficient and if you master open turns they can be just as fast as flip turns at our amateur level. Shinji has an 'open turn' clip on youtube of all styles including freestyle.
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Last edited by swimust : 05-27-2013 at 04:27 AM.
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  #8  
Old 05-27-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi swimust

You obviously must be doing lots of things right if you can do a comfortable 15 strokes in a 25-m pool and a legitimate 10 with long glides.

Could it be that you are obsessing too much about minor details and not keeping the basic principles in mind always?

Still, attention to detail is a good thing.
1) I guess it was 15 SPL at about 1.6-1.7 SR. Maybe slower. Just two days gone since you changed my understanding of the whole swim, no rush... :)
The 10 SPL was milking it really slow, I don't trust this count at all and I don't rely on it.

2) minore details?... of course you are correct but I think that I had no choice. I had to do "something" and not quit while being actually lost in wrong understanding of the swim. Two days ago I was stroking to serve the body rotation, not the other way around as it should be. A Big thanks to you for insisting on telling me the "facts of life" two days ago :)
Swimmers reading this think that I am a total idiot. I am worse. I was trying to understand Japanese from a body language without knowing the language itself at all... I guess I like crazy "insane" challenges.
Imagine if I could understand what Shinji said in his dryland long axis drill, instead of guessing it.

P.S. - You know what? You just taught me to stop counting the SPL every 5 minutes in the water! From now on I will count only at the end of the swim session, one count on average pace and one on slow pace. Counting the chickens should be done at the end of the day, not in the middle of the day...
I better focus on my technique than on my "awards". I am seriously annoying myself with my stupid behavior :(
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Last edited by swimust : 05-27-2013 at 04:38 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-27-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi swimust

Sometimes I think it would be a good idea for you to learn Japanese. Then you could understand what the Japanese coaches, especially Shinji, are saying and writing.

I gather that spoken Japanese is quite feasible but written Japanese more of a challenge. Still, since you already have a fair grasp of more than one European language, you have a head start.

Of course once you have a basic knowledge of the language you need to get a command of the swimming terminology and specifically the TI terminology, which is a language in itself. ;-)
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  #10  
Old 05-28-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Hi dprevish,
Just back from the pool and I got the "silky way" back :)
Please read my "donkey TI guide for dummies" thread to check if you followed these guide lines :) http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=6362
blind leading the blind... ;)

My guess is that you were losing the "silky feeling" when you were engaging the forearm and moving it back with the elbow moving forward.
Do no focus on the forearm at all! Just move the elbow forward without thinking of the forearm! - That solved my catch and made me find the silky feeling again.
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