Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-15-2013
caronis caronis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
caronis
Default Underwater-Backward Dolphin Kick??

I am wanting to improve my underwater dolphin kick and I want to mention some things that I have heard about it. Please correct me if what I've heard is wrong!....
I've heard that there was a backstroke swimmer who was setting world records by swimming most of the distance doing the Underwater-Backward Dolphin Kick?....and that new rules had to be implemented to limit how far swimmers go underwater before reaching the surface to stroke....
To me it seems that if this is true, then the name of the Freestyle stroke should be renamed the forward crawl because freestyle should mean that you can swim anyway you want.....
Is it true that this is basically the fastest way to swim?? Without actually taking a stroke and just holding your breath and undulating the whole way?
I can't swim very fast this way, but I would like to learn. Any possibility on creating a DVD or instruction on this specialty? It would seem to me that this is a very important skill that all the fastest swimmers seem to share.
I would love feedback on this!!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-15-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caronis View Post
I am wanting to improve my underwater dolphin kick and I want to mention some things that I have heard about it. Please correct me if what I've heard is wrong!....
I've heard that there was a backstroke swimmer who was setting world records by swimming most of the distance doing the Underwater-Backward Dolphin Kick?....and that new rules had to be implemented to limit how far swimmers go underwater before reaching the surface to stroke....
To me it seems that if this is true, then the name of the Freestyle stroke should be renamed the forward crawl because freestyle should mean that you can swim anyway you want.....
Is it true that this is basically the fastest way to swim?? Without actually taking a stroke and just holding your breath and undulating the whole way?
I can't swim very fast this way, but I would like to learn. Any possibility on creating a DVD or instruction on this specialty? It would seem to me that this is a very important skill that all the fastest swimmers seem to share.
I would love feedback on this!!
UDK is the "fifth stroke".

The master:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fJ2Wcj5P0c

And this one...you can actually see me sitting at the poolside here in the blue baseball cap (total immersion cap at that!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7insTOmDlU
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle


Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 05-15-2013 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-15-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

Hi Caronis

The man given most credit for introducing the extended dolphin kick in backstroke was David Berkoff and it was known as the Berkoff blastoff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oTlD...eature=mh_lolz

The commentator's attempt at Daichi Suzuki's first name is typically terrible.

The 15-meter rule was introduced to avoid races being swum mainly under the water.

The proper name for the stroke swum on the belly is crawl, variously known as front crawl (the usual term in Britain) and probably depending on nationality the Australian crawl or the American crawl. Johnny Weissmuller's famous book is called Swimming the American Crawl and is well worth a read if you can find a copy. The race is the Freestyle race and in principle you can swim any stroke you like and people often swim backstroke, butterfly or breaststroke in masters competitions, but in the Olympics (apart from the first few when some swam Trudgen) that has probably never happened because the crawl is the fastest stroke.

The original backstroke (or at least one of the original styles) was swum with both arms and a breaststroke kick and is known in Britain as the Old English Backstroke, but people soon found that an alternating action with a flutter kick was faster and so it came to be known as the back crawl or nowadays just backstroke, but the Old English lives on in masters swimming and some are faster with it than with back crawl.

There's a chap from Brazil on youtube who thinks he has invented a new stroke, but it's just Old English. I wrote to him to tell him that it has been described in many early books on swimming but he seems to prefer to think that it's all his own.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-15-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

Here's Hill Taylor showing how it could be done if the rules were changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNb6yxFU9hk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-15-2013
caronis caronis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
caronis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
The 15-meter rule was introduced to avoid races being swum mainly under the water.
I suppose this is necessary because it would be a huge risk to swimmers by pushing themselves to hold their breath for as long as possible....In Santa Cruz, about a month ago, a child became totally unconscious while practicing an underwater drill and his father watched on while he was being resuscitated on the pool deck.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-15-2013
caronis caronis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
caronis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Here's Hill Taylor showing how it could be done if the rules were changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNb6yxFU9hk
This is unbelievable!!! This is what I'm talking about!

I notice that in comparison to Misty, this swimmer does not move his arms much at all....his chest moves just slightly more.....The undulating action seems mostly legs....I guess you have to view this as the power coming primarily from the core (hips), with the legs moving most of all.

I really do believe that this technique should be taught as "the 5th stroke"....In fact, I would bet that this technique separates the elite swimmers from the mediocre ones....even though this is more applicable to breast stroke and butterfly.

This reminds me of something that Terry learned a while back about the swimmers he was coaching....that they travelled faster in the beginning of their lap then when they actually began stroking...It demonstrates a very powerful principal....That in swimming sometimes less is more....If humans could breathe underwater, then I bet most humans would be swimming this way!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-15-2013
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

What about this guy here...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=4d7ODkPCecc
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-15-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi Caronis

The man given most credit for introducing the extended dolphin kick in backstroke was David Berkoff and it was known as the Berkoff blastoff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oTlD...eature=mh_lolz
This is almost accurate, but not totally though.

It's really Daichi Suzuki that first developed this UDK to this extent. In fact, he first displayed this technique during '84 Olympics, but failed to qualify using it.

For the vast majority of people, NO this technique is not the fastest way to swim. Personally, at Fly (I hate back), my UDK is significantly slower than my full stroke (probably around 17.5sec vs 14.0 for 25m). Therefore after diving, I usually pull out very rapidly avoiding wasting time doing like so many others, ie dolphin kicking without even realizing that it slows them down.

Also note that the Streamlined Underwater Dolphin Kick like it's often called, or SDK, is entirely different from the undulation action that takes place when swimming the Fly. Whilst swimming the fly, the undulation should include upper body. Whilst SDKing, upperbody must be fix, and therefore the head shouldn't move at all. Torso must be fix and stable. Actions therefore starts from the abs down to the legs.

It is very very difficult to accelerate this particular action passed your top speed whilst swimming, it takes serious dedication. Having floppy ankles doesn't seem to guaranty success, as mine are very flexible and floppy, but yet my SDK remains significantly slower than my full stroke.

Over the course of my career, I only came across one real back swimmer who mastered this gesture. Not that surprisingly, he still holds our team record over 50 back in 25.07 (try this). It was done in 1995, so in this case, you'd see him popping at the 15m mark both on the way up and on the come back.

His fly was kind of crappy by my own standards, but his SDK was so hot that he could easily qualify for Nationals at 50/100/200 Fly as well.

Also note that whilst a lot of people are in admiration with Phelps Freestyle, I don't think he should even be used as a model at that stroke. Without his top notch SDK, this guy would have been off the chart (below it, and quite a lot).

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-15-2013 at 10:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-15-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

The underwater dolphin, front or back, is definitely not my fastest stroke. In fact it wouldn't surprise me to discover that my fastest underwater stroke is my streamline, and I'm sure that could be improved. It would be interesting in a nerdy sort of way to be timed. The timer would have to have patience, or be very well paid.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-16-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caronis View Post
This is unbelievable!!! This is what I'm talking about!

I notice that in comparison to Misty, this swimmer does not move his arms much at all....his chest moves just slightly more.....The undulating action seems mostly legs....I guess you have to view this as the power coming primarily from the core (hips), with the legs moving most of all.

I really do believe that this technique should be taught as "the 5th stroke"....In fact, I would bet that this technique separates the elite swimmers from the mediocre ones....even though this is more applicable to breast stroke and butterfly.

This reminds me of something that Terry learned a while back about the swimmers he was coaching....that they travelled faster in the beginning of their lap then when they actually began stroking...It demonstrates a very powerful principal....That in swimming sometimes less is more....If humans could breathe underwater, then I bet most humans would be swimming this way!
Misty's stroke in each if these is a demo, she was one of tje fastest udk fly swimmers and she and her coach worked extensively on this even to the point of using food dye in the water and filming her above to find out how propulsion works in this "stroke". They even corresponded with the editors of i believe pipular mechanics to make sure their theories were plausible. she and her coache used tempo, distance per kick and pace i. her race strategy just as ti coaches use it in freestyle set planning.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.